It’s called enshitification, we knew it was coming.
That title is cringe as fuck. There’s nothing concerning about it at all. Market saw Steam Deck’s success so they dove in. Whether they survive is dependent on if they provide good price points or justification for a higher price. Super simple.
they’re also forgetting the touchpads. the touchpads are so fucking good, and they add so much usability and flexibility. so much, I think, that no amount of superior performance, resoution, or battery life can make up for the lack of them.
This is why I bought a deck oled even with the other more powerful handhelds already out.
I have the OLED too and it’s such an exceptional device. Works very well as a media PC too, especially with KDE Connect for controlling remotely from a smartphone
It’s so nice fr, it helps I had sorta “prepared” by learning Bazzite on my spare laptop prior, so got very familiar with the immutable aspects and flatpaks/appimages
Absolutely. They make mouse-based games playable with a controller. Gyro is nice too.
Not just playable but pleasant! Thing is perfect for Rimworld especially
I haven’t played RimWorld on Deck yet… Sounds like a good way to lose entire days.
I just want something that I can play up to say Playstation 3 or Xbox 360 level emulation
I dunno what this article is on about, you can find thousands of those from the likes of Anbernic, Powkiddy, Miyoo, Retroid, etc.
This is nothing new. Before the steam deck came out, Handheld PCs have already been
overpricedexpensive. Other manufacturers haven’t bothered about affordability before, during ot after the steam deck.That said, Gabe Newell said the steam deck was priced “painfully”, which means they probably had very low margins on the hardware and are making it back on sales on their store. Other manufacturers do not have that luxury.
Steam Deck hits a sweet spot. You can make it more powerful, but it’ll cost significantly more. You can make it cheaper, but you’ll cut out too many games people want to play.
Also, anything like this with a resolution higher than 720p is wasting pixels and GPU power, IMO.
- you couldn’t make it more powerful, it had the best of the best.
- my eyes work, and I still I don’t think clearer text and UI is a waste
There are several competitors that are more powerful, like the ROG Ally. They also need a bigger battery to support it, or they have worse battery life. And they’re more expensive.
Clear text and UI is an issue because games don’t scale their shit properly.
Those came after, Valve hasn’t a time machine (as far as I know)
You’re right about games not scaling shit properly, but that’s 99% of the time in gen 8 (console-first) games, where those games where designed solely for big screens with HD+ resolutions. Modern games have already started figuring out scaling for different resolutions and aspect ratios
Higher resolution will mean smaller text by default.
Other manufacturers do not have that luxury.
They can find some margin in using a rolling Arch distro instead of paying for Windows, Gabe helpfully provided the template that you can reuse.
Which if anything is other manufacturers benefiting from the R&D that Valve have done with Proton and just making it freely available to anyone.
I doubt Windows is the reason these are more expensive. Microsoft wants Windows in the handheld PC space, so they are likely to provide licenses for free and likely help subsidize the costs a bit, especially if they include trials for gamepass.
Except that Windows versions of the same handheld are more expensive.
I am not aware that you are able to use SteamOS on anything that isnt an AMD CPU and GPU (only APU?).
If it’s not yet generally available for any hardware combination it would be very tempting to switch.
Already used the desktop of the deck quite a bit to customize some behaviour (automatic start of syncthing after (game-mode) boot to sync save states to my PC, EmuDeck, emulators in general)deleted by creator
I wouldnt call devices like the GPDwin overpriced considering it’s probably lower volume production and niche use case.
But they are overpriced in direct performance comparison.
“slowly”
Valve can easily sell Steam Decks with $0 profit. Can’t say the same for other OEMs.
But we’re not taking about other handhelds being 25 bucks more, or 50, or 75, or even 100 more, no, we’re taking about being multiple hundreds more
I mean, I don’t know valve’s margins but strategically they could sell steam decks at a loss and still come out ahead.
100%
Before I bought a steam deck I hadn’t used steam in years. Now I’ve bought like 20 games… Its a great way to get people on steam who otherwise wouldnt be interested.
I believe some youtubers mentioned (maybe Tyler McVicker or some other in the space) that they are razor sharp margins and border on being profitable just like a console manufacturer.
If only there was something to be done to slash the price while not losing anything important like using an OS that is FREE… But alas, there’s no such thing, I guess we’ll have to stick with windows, adding the license price to a hardware that is already expensive…
Technically the OS isn’t free: Valve pays a team of developers to maintain the SteamOS and also donates money to Arch and Ubuntu foundations as well as to the Proton and Wine dev teams as well as contributes code to the linux kernel. All costing them money, that they eat but could easily find a way to charge the end user
Technically the OS isn’t free
And practically, that doesn’t matter. Valve isn’t charging anyone a licensing fee for the software they’ve developed, so as far as the cost of the device goes SteamOS is free. Just because they could charge for it doesn’t change that.
All it would take is for GabeN to die and a corporate takeover for Valve to change their tune. They are a corporation pursuing profit, not some fucking benevolent NGO, so stop idolizing them.
A lot of it is FOSS so no, they can’t take it back even if GabeN dies and a hostile takeover happens. They can stop giving out updates, which would be disappointing but far from the end of it.
They might not be benevolent, they’re still a major breath of fresh air compared to basically every other gaming company out there.
Where do you get that I’m “idolizing them” from my post? Whatever Valve pays to get this development done, it’s not pushing up the price of a device that runs Linux/Proton vs one that runs Windows, because Linux/Proton/etc don’t attract a licensing fee, while Windows does. That’s just objective fact. Meanwhile you’re over here speculating your tits off about stuff that might happen, so you can yell at me. The fuck did I say to warrant this aggressive bullshit from you?
I was rhetorically speaking, so if you feel targeted, it’s you projecting some sort of guilt, home slice.
If GabeN is any sort of decent leader, he should be planning for retirement/death/etc.
A basic lesson of leadership is to start training your replacement ASAP and ensuring that things will run smoothly without you.
I mean… bazzite? ChimeraOS? You don’t need to go to steamOS to find a free linux distro that works well with games. Hell, you could even customize one based on any of those so you don’t have to pay for a windows license for your products.
Both of those heavily rely on Wine and especially Proton, which is funded by significant donations from Valve software, so you are arguing a trivial cost versus a subsidized cost.
So, instead of paying to license widows in your device, pay to support a system that ditches windows so you can stop relying on it and reduce costs of your products?
Every other company is free to sponsor FOSS development too. You’re saying that like Microsoft and Windows aren’t already a defacto monopoly. Charge a FOSS contribution fee instead of the Windows license, done, Linux development sponsored by the manufacturers is solved and they too get to not get steamrolled by Microsoft.
The only part they could realistically charge for is the Steam store access. Everything else is open source and portable
Any device that come with SteamOS by default, is a device that doesn’t come with both Windows and Xbox game store by default. Basically Valve isn’t paying for the OS, it’s paying for devices that run Steam Store by default (instead direct, unfair, competition from Microsoft)
Can Windows PC come by default with Steam Store? Of course… if Microsoft allow them to.
Do you pay to download it?
Do you need to pay for a license to use it?If not, it’s free.
Tip: (F)OSS aint free. The devs working on those programs also donate their time to the project
Steam has the steam store to recoup this cost. This is the same model MS and Sony follows to sell the hardware at or below mfg price.
But MSI, Asus and others don’t have their own platform, so they have to sell for more to maintain their bottom line.
If they ditch windows, their products can cost less without reducing profits, selling more units because of reduced price.
There is no reason for them to go with windows instead of linux if in neither case they are profitting from the OS.
Not only that, Windows machines need more raw CPU power to account for the increased overhead compared to Linux
MS could be offering marketing fund deals, I’m not privy to such business decisions. But even if we assume they don’t, these manufacturers are in a clear disadvantage compared to Valve.
They won’t be able to compete on price with the deck even if they go with linux.
Naturally they should choose linux IMO, but they not neccessarily have the same interests as me.
Who supports that?
At least Windows is only one plattform in comparison to the bazillion linux-distros.Same issue devs face with consoles vs PCs.
Steam on Linux defaults to providing a container based standard Linux environment which is independent of the underlying OS, providing access to all the expected software libraries and OS calls that games need to run.
This is integrated into SteamOS. It’s also available via Steam on any other Linux distro. (And if you wanted to you could cut that part out and run it without Steam.)
When running Windows games it even runs Proton within this container environment.
That gives you a single very predictable and version controlled software environment.
Meanwhile Windows randomly deprecates stuff that somebody might have invested tons of development effort into (silverlight, mixed reality, etc)
When talking about a container environment you are talking about WINE, arent you?
But if we are talking about native developed games, how would that look?
That sounds to me like 1st priority-development will be continued using Windows as a base + DirectX and reliance that WINE will somewhat manage that.
How would native Linux look for game devs in terms of platform targeting?No, Wine (and Proton) is a compatibility layer (API translation, etc). Containers is an isolation method which hides the details of the OS from the software and gives it a standardized environment.
https://github.com/ValveSoftware/steam-runtime
No matter what Linux distribution you run Steam on, the only thing you need to do is to get the container system up and running. Once that runs, all software that runs in these containers will run on that device.
So something akin to flatpak/snap?
Isnt that the purpose and source of controversy vs distributing them the usual way of repositories?Edit: Had some time to read the README.
Very interesting. But that sounds, like a vendor lock-in. Essentially devs are forced to use the Steam SDK to make it executable on Linux or face the issue of checking the compatibility of every distro, no?No, the container environment uses default open source libraries. You don’t add any Steam dependencies to make software run in that environment. You can run it without Steam too. It’s just that Valve are the ones maintaining and updating this particular packaging of containers. When Valve releases new versions of their container (including updated default system libraries), you have to test compatibility with it or stick to using an older one. Similar to how Windows software versions would work best with different Proton versions.
You can use the Steam SDK when using it, and you can also choose not to.
Flatpack is a separate thing, which only handles Linux software within the regular desktop environment (a different method for packing software dependencies, managing system permissions, etc). The main difference is that Flatpack software can integrate with the regular Linux desktop environment, but the container based solution is fully separate from it (runs in gaming mode).
Sounds interesting and eases my concern about the dependency on large corporations.
PS: What I meant by comparing Flatpack with the packaging from the SteamSDK is the general idea behind it (e.g. containerizing and isolating from the OS).
You don’t need to use Steam to run games though…?
So what if Steam stops development of the SDK or turns evil?
What other choices do devs have if they want to keep their systems compatible with all distros?
It looks to me as if you can either rely on proton/WINE or be stuck with the SDK if you run native.
Tell me you know don’t jack about linux without telling me you don’t know jack about linux in 25 words or less.
Well then: Clear it up.
I run headless debian VMs at home on a proxmox HV and another NUC with Debian that does Docker tasks.
My steckdeck runs the stock OS and am not scared to tinker within it.Never assumed to be a pro and would consider an amateur at best that isnt scared to tinker.
It’s just that I prefer convenience most of the time.So then. These are my cards. Explain what I learned wrong about the fractured linux ecosystem.
So far I know that Arch, Debian and RHEL the biggest distro families are.Edit: Very helpful. Downvoting instead of telling me where I am wrong.
(Yes my comment was provocative but @AbsolutelyNotAVelociraptor@sh.itjust.works should just tell where I am wrong if they are so sure of themselve).The other answer from @Natanael@infosec.pub tells you that now
Noticed and will be reading now.
I mean there will be customers for those products, I just don’t get why they’re leaving the mass appeal demographic on the table
Sell 15K units at 900 a pop, or sell 150K units at 500 a pop…
We don’t know the margins on these things but I’d think that higher volume sales would be better. But what do I know.
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I suspect they don’t have the means to produce higher volumes, or aren’t willing to take that risk
Nintendo can make sure their handheld has affordable hardware yet can play all their AAA games as they were meant to. Steam Deck can’t ever have that luxury. Some Steam Deck makers will make expensive ones that can play most of them, some will make cheaper ones that aren’t made for those games at all.
This is very difficult to explain to the casual buyer (think parents buying as a present for their kids).
I’m not sure most parents would be buying a handheld pc as a present for their kids. That’s a very expensive present to give a kid that could smash it on the ground or forget somewhere easily.
You have strange opinions regarding kids. Compare the price to a mobile phone.
/father of three
All the kids i know either have hand-me-down phones or new phones that’re at most mid-range or multiple generations old. I.E. the large majority of kids aren’t using 900 dollar phones
OK? Give it a couple more years and I bet you’ll start seeing that with handheld PC’s too
I’m not sure I follow. I have strange opinions about kids because I don’t think you should give a kid a 900€ phone/handheld when alternatives under 200€ exist?
I’m glad you can (and want to) buy a 900€ device for each of your 3 children, but I’m not sure how connected to the reality you are if you think that’s the norm.
The norm where? European middle-class, absolutely.
If you think that giving a kid a 900€ phone when there’s a much cheaper alternative that does the same is/should be the norm, you are part of a problem called consumerism.
What’s a valid reason to buy an expensive phone to a kid when a much cheaper alternative can do the same?
I think part of the issue here is that you believe that phones that cost 900 EUR really don’t offer anything cheaper alternatives don’t.
So answer me: what’s a feature that a kid needs and you won’t find in a cheaper phone?
Guy, this is Lemmy where the concept of a happy middle class EU/American is simply a lie that doesn’t exist.
Man, I just bought a refurbished Pixel 7 for $160 for myself. If you think I’m buying a $400+ Steam Deck – let alone some other handheld PC that’s even more expensive – for my kids, you’re outta your damn mind!
why cant valve optimise their new games specifically for their
hardwaresteam deck? why is that impossible?It’s not theirs?
valve can optimize their games for a steam deck. The steam deck isnt theirs?
When a games developer make a game for Switch Nintendo has a say in how it must perform before you’re allowed to release it. Valve have no such requirements on games put on Steam - it’s up to the developers whether to require a lot of performance or not. Thus, while Valve sells the Steam Deck that doesn’t mean games on Steam necessarily run well on it.
Steam Deck can’t ever have that luxury.
Still not sure why this is the case. Have yet to hear any clear argument why it will never happen for Valve.
There’s a lot of similarities and differences - the Steam Deck’s gaming mode is able to run a very barebones OS, similar to the very basic OS that the Nintendo Switch runs, with the game running in comparable sandboxes with stable software interfaces.
But Nintendo worked with Nvidia specifically to develop a variant of their hardware dedicated for gaming, while Valve essentially put a Linux laptop in a handheld console format (IIRC they did get help from AMD, but it wasn’t the same kind of deep collaboration), which notably may have different components between different hardware revisions.
When you try to maximize game performance that makes a difference, because on the Switch you can reliably push the hardware to the limits and expect it to keep working and on a Deck you have to test the hardware before pushing it. And if you find a trick that depends on architectural quirks you have to special-case it to not break on other hardware. There’s no guarantee that rarely used hardware features (both physical, and CPU/GPU instructions, etc) will stick around on a future revision of a Deck, while Nintendo guarantees forward compatibility (with help from Nvidia).
Nintendo even worked with Nvidia to emulate the Switch 1 GPU when running games for the first Switch on a Switch 2! They’re even going so far that they’re patching the emulation layer on a per-game basis to fix games where the default emulation method fails! And the ability to do this depends on knowing the exact properties of the hardware revisions of both the original and new GPU! (there’s architectural differences in the GPU that would break some games unless it was emulated)
Now Lenovo also has devices running SteamOS on different hardware, so games that runs on both either needs special cased optimizations for both, or only generic optimizations, or they simply have to decide to support one specific model better than others (which could end up with a game looking worse on better hardware because the dev didn’t try as hard with that hardware)
Why would that be concerning? Let the market find the right price point.
Because that works so well…
Yeah, like the House market /s
I wouldn’t compare a Steam Deck with living accommodations, but ok.
I don’t. I’m just telling another example of the ‘free’ market.
