cross-posted from: https://hexbear.net/post/7671573
Sweden knew Canada’s Marc Kennedy was a notorious cheater.
So they set up a camera at the ‘hog line’ to record it.
And caught him doing it at the Olympics.
Why is there not a camera from the top pointing down? Wouldn’t that solve any disputes?
🥌👈
I love curling drama.
They should be forced to give back the medal
Not really a good look for us. Would rather our athletes not cheat on an international stage representing our country. Play by the rules or not at all. Thank you very much.
Getting caught with “you can fuck off” on a hit mic doesn’t help either. Last thing anyone wants is for Canada to gain a reputation of cheating, especially after the drone scandal with the Canadian womens soccer team at the Paris Olympics in '24.
Ahead of the tournament, on 22 July, New Zealand players noticed a drone flying over their training session and reported this to local police.[2] Drone operating laws in France ban drones from being flown above people and ban recordings made by drones to be shared without the subjects’ consent. French police were already wary of drones in terms of security around the 2024 Summer Olympics.[1][3] Saint-Étienne police followed the drone and found and detained its operator, a member of the staff of the Canadian team. The New Zealand Olympic Committee (NZOC) then reported the incident to the International Olympic Committee (IOC) integrity unit, before making a public announcement the next day together with New Zealand Football, expressing their disappointment towards the Canadian team. The Canadian Olympic Committee (COC) then apologized to the NZOC and said they would review next steps with Canada Soccer and all the relevant governing bodies.[2][4]
The drone operator, analyst Joseph Lombardi, admitted after his arrest that he had also filmed another New Zealand training session on 19 July,[5] a fact later made public by the COC.[1][3] Though Lombardi immediately said that the spying was “a personal initiative”, the police found a text message exchange on his phone with assistant coach Jasmine Mander that indicated Mander knew of the spying.[6]
If you’re resorting to espionage please just accept that you suck and don’t do things that drag your nations reputation in the process.
Every Canadian who is a cheat deserves a reputation as a cheat and should get it. Raise your people better.
Anyone involved in this should be fired and not allowed anywhere near amateur or professional sports teams.
Flying drones to record trainings during the Olympics isn’t “a little bit cheating”, that shit should be smashed to hell
I trust whatever committee they have at the Olympics to make the judgement on this, but if our team is cheating, fuck those guys.
Yes, there’s some redactionist arguments about how it “doesn’t actually impact the rock,” but fuck that. We have a codified rule that specifically says you can’t do it, and these athletes are playing at literally the highest level that exists. They know better and have had time to practice better. If they’re cheating at the Olympics, I hope it follows them forever.
If it doesn’t impact the rock, then why do they risk breaking the rules to do it?
It can prevent over-rotation of the rock. He knew exactly what he was doing.
Because extreme cases can impact the rock. Barely touching the rock in the way caught on film realistically isn’t impacting the rock, but the rule needs to exist to prevent someone from actively pushing the rock after letting go.
But again, these guys know better and have had the time and resources to train better.
ok, but we are talking about a sport that is using brooms to micro melt the ice, and on a molecular level changing how the rotation changes the direction of this rock… someone touching the rock seems much more impactful
Fair enough. I realize now that I spoke with more confidence on the reality of the situation than I intended. Any avid curler I’ve spoken with regarding this in the last couple days swears up and down that the level of interaction that supposidly occurred between the curler and the rock is genuinely a non-factor. I do not know from any level of personal experience, hence why I stated that I trust whatever Olympic panel exists. I merely wanted to counter the poor argument that “the rule wouldn’t exist if it can’t impact the rock,” as the rule can absolutely exist for the purpose of more clear cut cases.
Armchair analysis is rarely worth taking seriously. I suspect that neither of us actually know from experience, but maybe you’re a professional curler.
It really isn’t. Those rocks are heavy, a light touch like what’s seen in the video would have very little impact.
Changing the friction of the ice on the other hand has significantly more impact because of how heavy the rock is.
If anyone’s interested in the world curling statement, here. Basically, umpire decisions in the moment are final and cannot be changed from video evidence, the thrower may retouch the stone as many times as they want before the line, BUT they must release the stone from the handle. So a little bit dubious? But they can’t change it even with video evidence.
It does say touching the granite part of the stone is forbidden
I think I read that the rules are a bit vague saying something like “release the handle”. And don’t clarify if that explicitly meant the handle is the last /only thing you can touch.
The rules are clear that they can’t touch the stone after it starts to cross the hog line. Which I’ve seen a video of him still touching the granite when the stone has clearly started to cross the line and that’s unambiguously against the rules, regardless of if the touch influenced the stone’s movement.
Edit: I just read the link on the comment above yours. They quote the exact rule in question, and clarify that their official interpretation is that it means touching the granite is against the rules.
Send them on an all expenses paid trip to America as punishment!
Woah dude, chill
Of fuck that’s a war crime.
Its never a war crime the first time.
Even worse not just to America but specifically New Jersey, undeniably the worst part of America
Nope, send them to a Red Oblast after they are forced to watch the Deliverance.
Hey, heys hey now.
… yeah you’re probably right.
Even in the turn of the 31st century is it still not livable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsqHEmMao8w
Did we learn nothing from Men With Brooms?!
I am disgusted. Appalled. Normally that would also turn me on but in this case I find the actions too morally reprehensible.
For anyone struggling with why this is a big deal* it’s like if you were playing billiards and nudged the ball after you made the shot because you didn’t like the angle of the shot, it kind of ruins the whole point
* lol, I mean, for curling at least
…if said billiard ball weighed 40 lbs.
A little finger poke ain’t gonna do shit.
But, the rules are the rules.
A little finger poke ain’t gonna do shit.
And yet they risked getting caught breaking one of the major rules to do it. Why take that risk if doing it had no effect?
Check out the article I shared - many high-level curlers don’t consider it an infraction at all, let alone a major one. Even Oskar Eriksson, who made the original accusation, doesn’t seem to think it’s exclusive to Team Canada:
For us, it’s been a problem the last couple of years, so we think it’s good that everyone can play with the same rules. Hopefully it’s just getting better from this.”
It’s a dumb thing to do, though, and I’d be happy if people cleaned up their acts across the board.
the primary method of playing the game involves melting a microscopic layer of ice to alter the trajectory of the 40lbs rock….
A tiny finger poke makes a ton of difference apparently, which is precisely why it’s forbidden. You’ve got a 45 meter long track, small adjustments matter a lot. Though honestly I cannot believe I am letting myself getting worked up over fucking curling.
I guess it’s just the reaction to people cheating at the highest competitive levels and then have the gall to be fucking abrasive assholes about it.
Having curled myself, I can assure you it does not…and if it did make a difference, it would almost certainly be negative, since you’re giving up any semblance of control that you had on the actual throw. There’s not going to be some “precision poke” that magically steers it where it needs to go. But don’t take my word for it.
Does it make any difference?
“No. The double-touching that I’ve seen has been incidental contact, and that’s fingers brushing or hand brushing on a 40-pound piece of granite,” said Eugene Hritzuk, a Canadian curler based in Saskatoon who has been involved in competitive curling and coaching for more than 60 years.
“What can fingers brushing against a 40-pound piece of granite do in any event? You need the palm on your hand against that stone to do anything.”
Delivering a stone entails acute skills to slide on line and on pace, he said.
Once sliding on target and at the right speed, releasing the stone and then touching it with any force would cause it to veer off its intended line and speed, Hritzuk said. “That would not be advantageous to good execution.”
Canadian curling commentator John Cullen, who hosted the CBC podcast Broomgate: A Curling Scandal, said most top curlers will say that double-touching has no effect on the stone.
As well, most top curlers will double-touch at times and don’t think it’s a foul, he said.
“The idea that a top curler would let a rock go and then want to try to adjust it with their finger —it doesn’t seem like there’s any way you could get an advantage from that. It feels like it would be worse.”
But as I said, the rules are the rules, and I don’t think it’s wrong to enforce them.
What can fingers brushing against a 40-pound piece of granite do in any event?
This is a fun little physics problem.
The CoF of a curling stone on ice appears to be between .006 and .016 depending on fast its sliding.
So with a CoF of .006 that 40lb chunk of granite has an effective weight of just four ounces relative to that same chunk of granite at a CoF of 1. With a CoF of .016 it’s relative weight is 9 ounces.
So if the finger brush is in either the X or Y axis then basically anything more than what it takes to press a key on your keyboard will have an effect.
Trying to stop the stone from rotating is a whole different matter because then you’re working against it’s stored inertia and that will be much much higher. No way to calculate that though unless you know it’s rate of spin.
I appreciate you finding that article - interesting one.
I’m very much amateur curler, and can’t see how that tiny touch would impact it, but maybe it does at that level of competition.
Using a perfect shot to stop on the button with no spin, and energy= all kinetic (1/2mv2) =friction energy(F*deltaX), we get a release speed of 1.8m/s (with a .006 coefficient), and a 2.98m/s speed (with a 0.016 coefficient).
Using the same equation, I go ahead and rerun the number, but adding a distance of 0.1m, a value I used as a good approximation of a reliable accuracy of an Olympic throw, and a time of 0.2s (the approximate time I estimated based on the video), which means a deltaX2 of 0.36m, or 0.596m.
1/2mv2+fapplieddeltaX2 = ffrictiondeltaX Fapplied comes out to 0.326N to 0.526N which is a miniscule amount.
That seems to indicate that a tiny touch DOES have the potential to make a significant difference. Some sources say 0.25 to 0.5N is required for a keyboard press, so its roughly on par with that
But, how much of a difference does the sweeping make on stone speed? Its easy to say that tiny change can impact things, but how does it compare to, say, sweeping hard vs not sweeping?
This study shows a sweeping change of 45+/-8mm. Thus a change of 25% on top of that is not insignificant.
So the last question is, does it make sense for someone to train specifically by cheating this way rather than doing it right and just pushing off with a more accurate force? That’s likely going to be subjective, but seems difficult to me.
Who knows, maybe this is a crutch and it is making a difference. Sounds like they need to stop doing it any case, whether a way they’ve trained or not. Or wear a camera showing they don’t touch the rock and just hover their finger behind it.
It’s strange then how this is a common strategy among cheaters in curling, and that it is exactly what the Canadian team is known for, and it is illegal to do for precisely that reason.
I’ve been watching the curling through these Olympics, and after this was done there were reports that other nations teams also have claimed to have done this before, and that they don’t think it requires extreme policing like the Swedish team suggested. The latter half of their argument led me to believe it happens a lot more than we knew before this incident and they’d rather this not become a constant issue. Sounds like the Swedish team has been trying to accuse the Canadian team of this for a few years now, and have gotten a reputation internationally about it as sore losers.
So it’s only “what the Canadian team is known for” because of the swearing response, and the fact it was broadcast everywhere after Swedish media blew up about it, and why they only had umpires watching as of the next day. It seems like the rest of the world doesn’t care about this, and is more upset about the aggressive response (which I think everyone can agree with)
this is a common strategy among cheaters in curling
Very confidently stated, but I really don’t think it is.
it is illegal to do for precisely that reason.
It’s illegal because it’s way simpler to implement a “no touching” rule than to try to define game-changing and non game-changing touches in a way that would be enforceable.
And again, I have absolutely no problem with the rule being enforced, even though I don’t think for a hot second that it impacted the game.
If it doesn’t help. Why risk doing it if it’s against the rules?
Having curled myself,
dude…people do this when they over-rotate the stone after letting go of the handle. It’s not about steering or momentum forward. a slight drag will reduce the rotation.
There is no reason to be pointing a finger on release.
I would love to see someone go to a curling rink and demonstrate this this is remotely possible.
There is no reason to be pointing a finger on release.
I completely agree. There is absolutely no reason to do it, because there is no chance it will do anything.
A little finger poke ain’t gonna do shit.
a slight drag will prevent over -rotation of the stone.
Regardless, it’s a fucking rule.
I have said several time that I have no problem with the rule being enforced.
a slight drag will prevent over -rotation of the stone.
I really don’t think so, especially the light touch that I’ve seen on video (which, to be fair, was Homan’s throw on the women’s side). Again, these things are damn heavy, and you’re not going to push them around with a finger without making a visible effort.
I can’t imagine why people think it wouldn’t have an effect. This is a sport where brooms have an effect. Why wouldn’t a push have an effect? And if it had no effect why do they do it?
It is really besides the point. It is against the rules, that team is a bunch of immoral cheats and so is everyone defending them pieces of shit you shouldn’t trust to pour you coffee.
The brooms affect the ice in front of the rock, which changes the rock’s behaviour as it moves over the swept patch. You have to exert quite a bit of force to push the rock directly.
And if it had no effect why do they do it?
Sometimes by accident, I’m sure. And probably more relevant, sometimes out of sheer laziness.
Ah let’s be honest here… That was neither laziness nor accidental.
Look, I find extending a finger to give the stone a boop after release completely baffling…but there’s no chance at all that it affected the trajectory of the thing. You might as well “cheat” by blowing on it.
Accident? He’s done it multiple times. The women’s team did it too.
Yeah, as the article I linked indicated, a lot of players simply don’t consider it an infraction, and therefore don’t give a damn whether they do it.
And for probably the fifth time, I have no problem with the rule being enforced.
I think he thought the boop was going to do something. It was entirely deliberate. The guy clearly cheated.
Alright. If you are gonna argue that was an accident then you just aren’t someone worth discussing things with. My god…
Insinuating that everyone always performs perfectly at the Olympics? I just watched a woman cry because she only landed a double-spin instead of a triple during the figure skating competiton. I supposed she didn’t land her jump on purpose too?
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe he accidentally touched the rock, but I am shocked you find it so unbelievable that someone could be so focused on where their rock is going that they didn’t pay enough attention to how their hand was positioned after they let go of the rock. High pressure situations create surprising mistakes.
Probably cuz he’s done more than once while he’s been at the olympics? Do you think that could be why I thought that?
Having been the one to originally use the word “accident,” I should probably amend that to “habitual.” A bad habit that people generally don’t call, that the Swedish team doesn’t appreciate (and is technically correct about).
That does seem like solid proof
Yes, but the Canadians threw a hissyfit shouting “Fuck off!” repeatedly at the Swedes during the match. They later went to Swedish newspapers accusing the Swedes of staging a conspiracy against them.
Those mooseknuckleheads should have been disqualified from the match for their shitty behaviour.
We’re not sending our best [to the Olympics] :(
Yep not impressed with this display of poor sportsmanship
During the whole thing I was just picturing these curling nerds saying that shit to my face and how that’d go down lol.
and how that’d go down lol.
What, getting your ass beat half to death by Olympian athletes?
Hahaha yeah I’m sure those curlers would be a rough fight! Try to understand that not everyone is an overweight neckbeard living in some WASP community like you do, buddy. Turn on the news sometimes.
Edit: oh wait wait I got a few good ones! I bet they would sweep the floor with me, hahahaha! I bet they would curl-stomp me! Hhahhhah! Aw shit that’s all the ones.
You are certainly like most people: a coward.
Hear hear we got a badass over here.
Yes I am a violent drug addicted criminal, I don’t know maybe you’re a nice kid in school and wear shirts and stuff but around my hood we don’t.
…but around my hood we don’t.
Lol, this is so stupid. Why?
Because we aren’t kids and don’t go to school since the 90’s.
Oooh, is this what you meant to say?
Yes I am a violent drug addicted criminal, I don’t know maybe you
’rewere a nice kid in school andwearwore shirts and stuff but around my hood wedon’tdidn’t.Sorry, but it’s still a really stupid thing to say and it doesn’t make you sound as tough as you might think lol
You realize we are not in your hood
Hence the if. I am in my hood. Is this gonna take long for you to internalize, or? You do realize that outside the bubble you live in is a big world with all sorts of people in it, right, some of them not particularly nice. What I said was, you speak like that around the wrong people in the wrong neighborhood you’re gonna get your face stomped. Is that something you find hard to believe?
No my friend, the point is we are on the Internet and nobody gives two shits how rough your neighborhood is. What the fuck is the point of telling me i get assaulted by poorly adjusted individuals over words? I wont meet them, i dont live in a country where we have “hoods”.
Sit down and stop acting like a badass in comment sections, nobody cares. The sheer fact that you are on this platform is evidence in itself that you are first and foremost a nerd, which is perfectly fine so why the posturing, lol.
And it was available for review right there right then. But we can’t use cameras in sports, because apparently that would ruin sports, for some reason. Oh, and except when they literally use them to measure stuff like who’s over the finish line first, or inside a line, or outside a line, or measure things down to 1/10000th of a second, and literally film every single moment of every event from every imaginable angle. BUT NOT FOR THIS. Because it would ruin the sport, all sports.
disagree. it isn’t conclusive. it shows that his finger was very close to touching for a few frames. that’s it. “very close” is not over the line. his finger is just enough on the back side that it’s inconclusive.
it’s a bit of a weird motion, sure, but watch a bunch of throws from various people and you’ll see some similar stuff.
that said, adjust your delivery so you’re not in this position in the first place. and settle down, even if there’s an ongoing issue you’re annoyed about.
I do find it funny that this is such a big deal but you can see people all over the place in this tournament dragging their finger(s) down the back of the handle at release, seemingly over the stone as well (yes I recognize that is a different motion that poking forward after being behind it)
Its a snapshot, he could have released this handle and retracted his hand with his finger off to side of the tangent of the rock. Wed need frames before and after for better review
Well in the slowed video it totally looks intentional https://youtu.be/W1yh6GN5ysks
Yeah, that’s a definite little poke after releasing.
Wait… As a non-sportsperson, what’s the drama here?
There is a line after which they are no longer allowed to touch the stone. The handles on the stone have sensors on it, to detect a touch after the line and call foul. But the Canadians touched the stone itself, not the handles. Which isn’t a legal move, but isn’t automatically detected. And with how they did it, the refs didn’t see it right away.
Edit: Correction, it doesn’t actually matter if it’s before or after the hog line, once the handle is released on the stone nobody is allowed to touch it anymore. The release has to be before the hog line, but there is no touching after that regardless of where the stone is.
In that shot, he is still before the hog line, but regardless still not allowed to touch that part of the stone. Touching it there should have zero effect on the actual throw, but it’s still illegal
It looks like hes either trying to nudge it over a touch or a put a bit of spin on it. He wouldn’t risk cheating at the Olympics with a method that has zero effect.
The rules are silent on touching the stone. They are clear about not touching the handle. I don’t disagree with you, but the granite is not the handle.
“Sports”… haha, good one.
“On second thought it is a silly sport, let’s not go there.”
I believe they’ve been caught three times at minimum now, and for all I know more now by today. The men’s team was caught twice and the women’s team was got once.
You can’t cheat when it’s not a real sport 🤣
I’m kidding guys relax
Now you’ve just pissed off the cheaters and the curlers
I’d joke about Venn diagrams but I’m afraid.
They’ll have to hurry hard and get me
