I don’t even know what else to add to this headline. This is so fucked up and tragic scary and infuriating and it will in no way slow the resistance.

  • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    110
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    3 days ago

    Heller said she heard ICE agents telling the driver, a woman, to “get out of here.”“She was trying to turn around, and the ICE agent was in front of her car, and he pulled out a gun and put it right in — like, his midriff was on her bumper — and he reached across the hood of the car and shot her in the face like three, four times,” Heller said.

    Heller said it appeared the woman accelerated, and traveled about 100 feet before striking a utility pole and some other vehicles, and could be seen slumped over inside her car.

    Horrifying

        • kelpie_returns@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          5
          ·
          edit-2
          3 days ago

          I mean…yeah. Regular people will do whatever they can to put off or avoid having to become murderers, regardless of where they live. Even if the murder would be justified; regular, normal people just don’t want to become killers.

          Obviously something needs to be done (or, more accurately, many things should have been done decades ago to prevent all of this cruel nonsense, but alas). Asking and expecting average people to kill just because it is the easiest way to envision out of this…that’s just not reasonable. Besides the social and emotional ask of it being monumental on its own, it would also be met with the greatest military force in world history, anyway.

          Many US citizens refuse to respond with militant might for the same reasons other world powers are refusing to intervene with the same: the violence it will spark will kill way, way more innocent souls than what is currently happening. Many of which will die horrific, torturous deaths en masse. Entire cities left as smoking husks. Families erased from the gene pool. Terrors and horrors unimaginable would become the norm, as is always the case with war.

          I can very much understand the frustration that stirs this line of thought, just as well as I can empathize with those being asked to pursue it. We all want this to be done with and we all want a simple, direct solution. There are very good and rational reasons to not provoke the US military, however. For foreign and domestic parties, alike.

          Tbc, I dont know the most appropriate solution either, but asking regular people to become murderers because it seems easy/possible from the outside…that’s just not a realistic ask for many of the same reasons that no world military is going to invade the US mainland anytime soon. Not without a whole lot of pain and suffering first befalling those average folks, at least. Enough people here have to agree that there is nowhere left to run before the regular joe can be overcome by the killer within, and that is a reasonable and usual response to these sorts of things, all over the world.

          And sorry for ranting on it. I am a pacifist, so the regularity and casualness of people telling me I should nut up and kill a politician is very disturbing to me on many levels. Again, I can understand the sentiment. I just can not sit with it morally, philosophically, or even on the terms of basic reasoning. The response would be overwhelming and truly devastating. I dont think further violence has ever really fixed this problem and I dont believe that’s going to magically change now.

          Edit: spelling

          • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            3 days ago

            am a passificst, so the regularity and casualness of people telling me I should nut up and kill a politician is very disturbing to me on many levels.

            I don’t think pacifists should be arming up and shooting anyone. I think people who cling to their guns and talk about fighting for freedom need to nut up or shut up (and I’m fine with the latter, just shut up already).

            I dont think further violence has ever really fixed this problem and I dont believe that’s going to magically change now.

            I think this is naive. Violence is an incredibly effective tool at degrading organizational capacity, destroying institutional memory, and quelling public opposition.

            When you’re dealing with ICE agents who can cavalierly execute civilians in public, I would love all three of those things to befall them, because I don’t want an organization with the capacity, the knowledge, and the public platform to execute my neighbors.

            But insurgent violence comes with enormous personal risks, it requires professional training, and it rarely produces tangible results in a single lifetime (especially the lifetime of a militant insurgent). So I’m certainly not going to ask people to stick their necks out.

            I just get tired of people posting TikToks in Camo Cosplay, pretending they’re part of some Last Line of Defense Against Tyranny. You’re bad liars. No serious person takes the 2nd amendment seriously as a political deterrent.

            • kelpie_returns@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              3 days ago

              Violence is, absolutely, necessary at times. I dont disagree with that.

              What I meant by that was that every time this sort of threat has been resolved by violence, it only sets the stage for future violence, because the true problem lies in the systems we use this violence to uphold. Those systems need addressing and reconfiguring if we ever want to see things like this become cultural relics. My phrasing could have admittedly been better, but I do not think it is naive to see the problem behind the problem.

              The gun nuts do need to stfu about their hollow ideals though. I’d say we are in complete agreement on that note. If they were to actually ‘walk the walk’ however…I dread what that may usher in tbqh.

              • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                0
                ·
                3 days ago

                What I meant by that was that every time this sort of threat has been resolved by violence, it only sets the stage for future violence, because the true problem lies in the systems we use this violence to uphold.

                The systems are the people. And when you kick out a lynchpin - be it MLK or Charlie Kirk - that system can fail.

                The gun nuts do need to stfu about their hollow ideals though. I’d say we are in complete agreement on that note. If they were to actually ‘walk the walk’ however…I dread what that may usher in tbqh.

                We’ve got people being rammed in their cars and shot gangland style through the windows.

                Delta Force is snatching foreign presidents while the sitting president dismisses the need for next year’s local elections.

                You can only waggle your finger saying “It could get even worse” so many times.

                • kelpie_returns@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  3 days ago

                  You are not wrong. Violence will again become a necessity, as has always been true thus far. Still tho, as bad as things are, a mishandling of the situation could very easily make things exponentially and explosively worse.

                  Again, I dont know what the proper fix is. But I do know that violence begets itself and as long as we remain in this cycle, it will only be a matter of time before our ways out of that abusive loop are razed entirely. That final revolution (“revolution” in the sense of this cycle of violence tbc) will most likely be coming someday and, with the US military being what it is and with who is currently leading it, that day’s coming could be very near. People are scared to act because all actions are met with reactions. Whether or not it is what you want to be true or to hear, it still could get a lot worse than it currently is, and throwing oil on fire is a great way to hasten that potential future.

                  Something needs to be done. I agree with that with every fiber of my being. I just dont see violence sparking further violence as the fix many of us hope it could be. Knowing what devastation the US military will check it with is not a hypothetical, a suggestion, or parody. It is a dire reality that ill-advised/ill-placed violence can and will usher in if allowed.

                  It’s a common saying in gun culture that the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. How do you stop a bad guy with more guns, missiles, and nukes than nearly all of the rest of the world combined? Good guys with guns can stand against that, but not for long and not in the “we are going to win this fight” sort of way either. They will be mowed down and turned to mush before they can even draw, if that is what the US military wants to happen.

                  I agree with your overall sentiment. I just cant find any reason to believe that what youre proposing will lead in the direction you are hoping it will, unless your hope is true and utter devastation.

        • Clent@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          3 days ago

          Further proof the second amendment is not actually useful for preventing an oppressive government.

          • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            3 days ago

            Just absurd to call it a “right” when nobody seriously believes the police will honor it. Less a civil liberty and more an excuse to ventilate your skull in a frenzied panic of gunfire.

        • xtr0n@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          3 days ago

          One side is trying to convince themselves that we’re not in a civil war and just an election away from getting everything back to normal. We’ve been in a cold civil war for at least a decade and it’s getting hot.

      • Modern_medicine_isnt@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        3 days ago

        While I agree, I don’t see how she would have been better off if carrying. In the end, if we all have guns, more of us are going to die than them. That said… I am thinking that getting a weapon if you can afford it, and afford to store it securely is a good idea.

    • Veedem@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      3 days ago

      They didn’t say “get out of here” they said “get out of the car. Get out of the fucking car”

      Either way, they murdered her and will get away with it.

        • Veedem@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          3 days ago

          I’m certain the driver was panicking and unable to process clearly. The DRIVER is not supposed to be the trained professional in this situation.

          I just like to ensure accuracy because the people who agree with the police will seize any error to show why we’re wrong and the media is biased and blah blah blah.