- cross-posted to:
- opensource@programming.dev
- opensource@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- opensource@programming.dev
- opensource@lemmy.ml
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How soon before Windows copies this, given they already tried this sorta lockdown with S Mode?
Also, couldn’t Ubuntu hypothetically lock down the Snap store like this?
How do we defend our privacy on Android now?
Privacy isn’t really in their interest. They feed off our data.
That’s obvious, but before, we could use GrapheneOS and F-Droid etc to defend it ourselves. I’m not expecting Google to help, just hoping the resistance has something up its sleeve too.
What does this mean for GrapheneOS and similar degoogled android versions?
Nothing changes for now but other moves by Google clearly show they are trying to kill 3rd party ROMs by locking down Android’s code. In my opinion, unless EU steps in and mandates phone manufacturers and Google to support google free apps we’re fucked.
The EU has no interest in allowing privacy on devices, since it is increasingly attempting to control alternative narratives. We’re in touching distance of the Fourth Reich now.
Would not be sure about that. There has been steps in opposite directions in the past. Remember the regulation regarding 3. party app Stores on IOS, or even further back in the past the “Free Brwoser Choice” in MS-Windows.
It is surely called competition law?
While it does not affect them directly, it is unlikely most app developers will give significant effort to only support a small percentage of Android users running custom ROMs. So while GrapheneOS users will be able to install apps, there will likely not be that many apps to install.
The european movement away from american stuff however is increasing, I’m hopeful that Jolla, Fairphone and the ROM world will actually increase in importance and numbers
I’m writing this on a GOS Pixel tablet with only free/libre installation sources. There are quite enough applications to install.
It’s the other way around. GrapheneOS users will be able to install all the apps but stock Android users will not be able to install apps from F-Droid and other alternative sources*. F-Droid will lose access to about 99% of the market.
*Technically it will still be possible for open source devs to distribute apps to stock Android users but it will require handing Google your personal information and setting up way more complicated build configuration.
Yeah, uh, no alarm bells in the market watchdogs? None at all?
Time to popularize Linux phones. I read that the security model is lacking, but especially given that Android is Linux too, it shouldn’t be too difficult to catch up. The EU is also interested in tech independence, so that could be one of the sources of funding. And there are a few viable early projects, like Ubuntu Touch and Sailfish.
There need to be enforced of competition law here. Companies aren’t going to voluntarily support a platform with few users. Users aren’t going to move to a platform without critical apps.
We live in a dystopia were you have to have the banks app to do online banking even on your desktop. You can’t charge your car without an app. You can’t navigate your car without a map app that has traffic information. Etc etc. I want FOSS alternatives to all these, but there isn’t and Google could take even having a FOSS platform at all.
This something we need regulators to fix. It is a politically problem, not a technical one.
America screwing up trust should wake up Europe to dealing with American tech monopolies. Now it’s not something just nerds and economists complain about, it is a geopolitical problem.
Fully agree, there should be regulations, temporary at least, that require/incentivize critical companies to make a mobile Linux version of their apps, as well as strategic funding and incentives to make the platforms viable. We as citizens should contribute too, increasing pressure for this to happen, spreading the message, becoming early adopters where possible, submitting feedback, contributing to development, etc.
Sailfish is not very alive. Ubuntu Touch too.
But honestly yes. I think the problems are mostly in hardware support.
The political problems driving the push for independence are fairly recent, so the current state is unlikely to be extrapolable.
There are devices using these operating systems that are also gaining popularity, like Jolla, Volla and Fair phone.
I am fine with it if they let you install stuff through adb.
Not sure how I should feel about this, if I should support the cause to keep android “open” (when it’s everything but), or if I should be happy that this piece of shit OS finally shows it’s true colours and people (including me) will finally be forced to find an alternative or stop using this trashware all together.
And hopefully developers finally get serious about GNU/Linux phones.
Until Linux Phones get good, we are seeing a very rough sail ahead. Or just hard fork Android ig if it’s a logical option.
I understand, but there’s a good argument that android is the reason why GNU/Linux phones don’t get good.
The death of android as an “open” platform would put some pressure to actual develop an alternative.
It won’t die. My country alone will have almost a billion Android users and those cheap Androids are all they can afford and know.
I have F-Droid on my Android phone. Iike having a marketplace where I can download floss apps.
I imagine lots of developers will jump to fdroid.
Not sure what closed source apps who don’t want to pay Google will do though…
You bank will be the last. Without your bank’s app, you may not be able to do online banking. Car park apps. Public car charger apps. Even theme parks now have a ride booking app. There is more and more “app for that” with no alternative.
We require law makers to get involved. America making it’s tech monopolies a visible geopolitical problem should help us.
Gonna have to wing Ubuntu touch and figure it out as i go. Fuck this shit. Access the boot loader while you can
Sorry to piss off all the Apple shills on here, but sounds like an opportunity to me. I think there’s enough of us that want something better and some traction with Graphene and some Linux options. This should be a spark to ignite some fires. I’m disappointed but unsurpised by this news, but also a little excited about the window of motivation and opportunity this opens.
Honestly, I’m worried. Current Linux options are expensive and or shitty. IDK if Sailfish is still a thing. I can’t use Apple. If I keep taking good care of my not-so-shitty Xiaomi phone, maybe I have a couple more years until I’m pwned.
PostmarketOS seems promising, though.
SailfishOS is still very much a thing and they have a brand new phone on the way. Since it hasn’t been released yet it’s hard to get into specifics, but early interest seems to point in a positive direction at least.
I look forward to LibrePhone coming online. I hope it comes soon …
“Librephone — Free Software Foundation — Working together for free software” https://www.fsf.org/campaigns/librephone
If you care about using third-party Android apps, I have good news for you, but grim news for the ecosystem. You will still be able to use third-party apps. But it’s going to be harder. You’ll probably need to use something like Shizuku or an ADB tool. The first wave of those affected won’t be you and me; it’ll be people who aren’t quite as technically competent. Then, slowly, a chilling effect will echo across independent development.
PostmarketOS is already in a good state for a secondary device, though I don’t think it can completely replace an Android phone just yet. Most devices still have some fundamental hardware support issues even on the more well supported phones (camera is the big one, call audio is also problematic on a lot of devices). However, as a pocketable Linux machine, it is wonderful. I got a second cheap SIM card so I can have data on my OnePlus 6 postmarketOS phone as there are a lot of tasks that work better on Linux than Android. I keep an Android daily driver but am trying to do less and less on it and more on the postmarketOS device.
Could you go over what Graphene is for phones? Is it easy to switch to an alternative to android?
It’s Android with all of the Google removed where possible and sandboxed where not. You can choose to install the Google Play services and use it like any other Android phone or use it without any Google software.
Some things won’t work, namely things like some banking applications and NFC payments, because they require on hardware attestation that Google will not allow Graphene to pass. Essentially everything that isn’t banking/payment related works exactly like any other Android phone.
It is just a secure phone (though you can still install Facebook on it if you want) that is designed around mitigating attacks that could violate your privacy and security.
Very easy to install, you just buy a Pixel directly from Google (don’t buy from the carriers, they’ll be locked). Enable OEM Unlocking in the Developer menu and then plug it into USB and you can install it directly from the Graphene site via WebUSB. It takes about 5-10 minutes, then your phone will reboot (It’ll give you a scary looking screen about not running a Google OS that you’ll see every time it reboots but it’s just informational, it doesn’t affect anything and the system will boot into GrapheneOS in a second or two).
The more complete instructions and WebUSB install process:
What really bugs me about it: The first step from “how to ungoogle your phone” is “go, give money to Google” by buying their hardware.
Buy refurbished. GOS support will be coming to a (yet unnamed) OEM.
It bugs me also.
My thinking is that the part of Google that I think is bad is their advertising and algorithmic recommendation systems which are built on private data that I no longer wish to divulge.
The Pixel is made by a company that used to be called HTC before they were consumed by Alphabet. That company produced good hardware that was smartly designed and innovative. That legacy continues with the device that Google has sells as the Pixel.
There are a few things about the phone that Alphabet has tainted, such as the inability to use NFC payments because hardware running GrapheneOS isn’t allowed into their secure hardware attestation chain. Not for any real technical reason, only because it allows Alphabet to disincentivize people away from a competitor by abusing their many monopoly powers.
GrapheneOS takes advantage of the excellently designed HTC hardware to create an operating system that is designed from the ground up to be secure. It then leverages the complete control over your hardware to put Alphabet’s other software inside of a little box where it constantly lies to the software in a way that lets your applications work without them actually being able to access everything on your device.
Yes, it is technically an Alphabet product and giving them money can feel distasteful. However, in this case by buying their hardware you can cut off their software, which is the actual thing that is negatively affecting everything.
I’d buy any other phone that fully supported GrapheneOS’s requirements for future devices.
Until then, I’m less worried about giving HTC money than I am about having a device that I know is under my control and that works to protect my privacy.
Its a version of android OS that can be installed on Google Pixel phones. Its a relatively easy switch if you’re technically inclined, but the device needs to be carrier unlocked.
I’ll switch in a heartbeat if they support a nonGoogle phone
If it’s just a fork of Android, doesn’t that mean 194 days from now they either need to branch off entirely and write their own code from here on out…
Or…
Never advance the base code?
Neither is true, that’s not how forking works. But there is some truth to it in that it can start to become significantly more difficult to keep in sync as time goes on, depending on how obnoxious the security becomes and how many places they have to remove it.
Consider the trivially naive case where Google implements this feature in a single function: “function app_is_signed() -> bool” then the fork just adds “return true;” to the beginning of that function, and happily merges every other update Google makes from then on with zero issues. Even if the code for “app_is_signed” itself changes, nobody cares, because the first thing it does is return true and everything else Google ever tells it to check or do is ignored, the function can still be used everywhere throughout the code, it just no longer actually checks anything in Graphene, whereas it does check things in Google’s Android.
Of course the reality is much more complicated than that, but the principle is the same. It’s only a question of how obnoxious and difficult Google chooses to be about it. They could move the function around every update, or use many different functions, make a whole system out of it, make it do crazy cryptographic validations and checksums in various different places of the code, have watchdog tasks that are checking that the validation code is getting used. They could be really, really obnoxious about it, if they want to be, and they have more resources than the Graphene OS developers probably do to undo and keep undoing all these obstacles, so if they really want to devote that much time and energy to making Graphene’s position untenable, they can. But they could also be doing that now, and they’re not. Crackers have been fighting these sort of battles against copy-protected software for ages, it’s the same principles, and much of the same economic choices go into it. How much does Google want Graphene OS to go away? How much is it worth to them? It has to have a dollar value to them, and that dollar value might be significantly higher than they’re willing to bother with.
No. As long as the base remains opensource (AOSP), they can remove the bad parts. Graphene has made numerous contributions to AOSP, I’m confident they can manage that. And if the user base growths, I hope their fundings will follow.
It would be a good thing for the world if AOSP was forked with big resources behind an open project with an open governance. But that needs lot of resources.
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The only response I’ve seen so far from F-Droid is that they’ve put up a banner to Keep Android Open. Has there been any kind of plan for next steps?
They responded to it when it first came up 4 months ago. I’ll paste my appropriate comment from that time.
The f-droid team spoke to that in a recent post. The post basically said that if that change isn’t stopped on a government level there’s no way for them to continue working. They didn’t mention roms.
Edit for the link: https://f-droid.org/en/2025/09/29/google-developer-registration-decree.html
They aren’t competitive with Android or iOS phones presently — don’t have the scale of userbase — but there’s only one way that that’s going to change, and that’s people starting to use them.
(“Linux” here as in “GNU/Linux”, as opposed to “the Linux kernel”, which Android phones also use.)
EDIT: Another option is to try to shift software use off of mobile devices as far as is practical, if you’re willing to carry a second, larger device like a laptop. Just use the smartphone as a phone and as a modem for Internet access via tethering. I’ve generally been aiming to do that myself. I realize that that’s not practical for everyone.
That approach does have some perks — you can get your audio jack, because the space constraints of a phone go away. You aren’t dependent upon your hardware manufacturer for N years of updates before your hardware is forced to become out-of-date software-wise. The devices are generally a lot more capable and upgradeable. The hardware is more modular, and there are considerably more options. You can run whatever software you want.
But…it’s bigger, the software library isn’t generally optimized for small touchscreen use, so one-handed use while waiting in line isn’t generally ideal, and it consumes more power. You can run some Android software via stuff like Waydroid, but I’m sure that software that requires a trusted hardware stack won’t accept that.
carrying a laptop won’t help. If it helped, I won’t mind running a termux os via proot also. I dont mind if it isn’t optimised for small touchscreen yet.
right now most mobile payment options in my country only work with android/ios. My bank requires a phone for its device token (2fa).
The food and cab ordering platform is also exclusively on mobile only.
very sad
That’s generally true. Personally, I enjoy using a laptop way more than using a mobile device of any kind.
However, modern life is beginning to require mobile apps (Android or iOS). More and more things simply aren’t available as a website or FOSS. You have to have a vanilla mainstream mobile device to do certain things like using your bank account. I really hate that.
Hardware peripherals are another area that really sucks. If you want to enjoy the comforts of modern life, many people just bow down and use one of the two mobile platforms in order to use their smart ring/scale/lights/curtains/heating/car, etc.
Resisting all that is getting increasingly difficult, because there’s so much to resist. On the other hand, resisting is also becoming increasingly appealing as enshittification intensifies.
(“Linux” here as in “GNU/Linux”, as opposed to “the Linux kernel”, which Android phones also use.)
I feel compelled to point out that PostmarketOS, one of the popular Linux phone options is not, in fact GNU. It’s based on musl and BusyBox, not glibc and GNU utils.
I thought installing apps through ADB will still be possible ? So we can assume it will be possible with shizuku ?
So then, in 194 days, Android will be an inferior version of iOS and you may as well just switch to Apple because their devices have a better security posture.
FUCK no! Apple is dogshit locked down like crazy, so, fuck no, politely.
At least I can get almost 10 years of updates on iOS.
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Presumably Android will still allow mounting the complete phone file system and the phones to have SD cards and headphone jacks. If we lose the ability to run whatever we want that majorly sucks, but still not as locked down as iphones.
No, because you can literally use an alt app store
“Install F-Droid ↗ on your Android device(s). The more people that use alternative app marketplaces, the harder it will be to shut them out”
Also, to data transfer anything, you’re locked to iTunes on a specific device, on Android I could sideload apps from my SD card if I wanted, move pictures or video, etc.
Also. Apple has alt app stores in other regions. Data transfer on Apple hasn’t needed iTunes for a long time, and it will read USB-c hard drives and keys. I don’t disagree with you that iOS is more locked down, just pointing out the gap keeps getting smaller. I have a Jolla pre order in, because I’m a fan of open hardware, but it will likely be my android phone that I drop in favour of it.
The link you posted literally has this banner at the top
F-Droid is under threat. Google is changing the way you install apps on your device. We need your help.
Reading is hard for some people lawl
It’s mostly marketing honestly. They’re both total ass.
No, unless you use GrapheneOS, iOS is far more secure than Android.
Are there any details on how it will be implemented? Will it affect older versions or just new/updated devices?
