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An issue with boycotts in general is that people are constantly talking about what not to do and not what to do alternatively or the specifics on how to get there. Eventually it makes you realize that literally anything you do will cause someone to get genocided or abused somewhere, and when they way out isn’t clear or straightforward, now you’re overwhelmed with thousands of things you hate that you do and have to figure out how to change on your own one by one, and those changes result in new problems that overwhelm you or turn out to also be unethical and you have to change them yet again. And in the end you hate yourself because your change attempts made you miserable while you’re still doing doing harmful things and other people hate you because you’re still causing genocides and the rest think you’re an idiot or a hypocrite for trying at all, while meanwhile everyone else around you is just enjoying themselves and not giving a fuck, and you’ll always be a terrible person anyways so you might as well give up.
I think if more people instead of saying “don’t do this” instead said “do this instead” when they talked about what to boycott and why, that would help with harm reduction a lot more.
Veganism is not a boycott. Here’s the commonly-accepted definition of veganism from the Vegan Society:
Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.
I am only boycotting when I have options or I really don’t need whatever is offered. Also if it is the only option and I need it, the boycott takes a back seat.
In a sense they’re not wrong, but it depends on what is actually happening, and what the person’s attitude is. It’s good to pursue a lifestyle that’s increasingly less dependent on animal products, even if imperfect. But is an actual progression occurring? It can often be the case, especially with dietary things, that a person will do something they believe is good once, and then treat themselves with a “cheat” day three times to that one good choice.
My change didn’t happen overnight. But I approached it the same way that I did when I quit smoking: I kept track of how long I went without eating animal products. When I messed up and caved in, I would start over at 0 the very next day, and resolve to go even more days without animal products than I had done on the previous attempt.
One of the larger barriers I had to break through was an anxiety about nutrition. By that point I had a pretty firm grasp of nutritional science already, and knew that people can get all of their nutrients from plants. Consciously I knew better. But unconsciously there was still this wild fear as to whether or not I could keep living on plants only. It felt dangerous. I was going up against a lifetime of propaganda.
The last time I intentionally ate meat was some pepperoni. At that point I had gotten so used to living on plants that it didn’t taste the same anymore. For one, it turned out at least for me, that after being without meat for long enough, it didn’t smell the same anymore. The odor became more rotten. It didn’t and doesn’t matter how fresh the meat is, it all smells like putrefying carcass now. That was one thing that made the pepperoni taste off. The other was that apparently I had gotten used to having less salt in my diet, because it was a completely overpowering, disgusting salt bomb.
And something had clicked in my head by that point. As I was eating it I kept thinking, “Why am I doing this? I’m not even enjoying it. I don’t need it. This isn’t right.” So I stopped eating it, and I haven’t felt the need to consume any animal body parts ever again.
Anyway, I think where things become frustrating depends on how a person is framing their habits. If it’s something like, “I’m trying, I am working on doing better,” then it’s understandable. But if it sounds more like the person is trying to justify eating animals or their products, and they’re either talking about it in a way where they’re trying to seek validation or using “militant vegans” as a strawman to criticise (see: the majority of the comments here) - that kind of makes it hard to remain diplomatic.
In cases like the latter, why are you so preoccupied with what other people think? It’s not about vegans, it’s about the animals. Going vegan requires going against an immense tide of social pressure, and that burden will never go away. You need to learn to think for yourself. Because when you do, you can look more objectively at how humankind treats every other species of sentient being on the planet and use your own internal moral compass to finally recognize what’s right in front of your face: it is wrong to eat them. It is wrong to exploit them. What happens in factory farms and slaughterhouses is horrific. And it can never stop until we stop supporting it.
It’s a hard conversation because y’all are demanding we tiptoe around a vast injustice that is urgent and actively resulting in the extreme suffering and deaths of billions every year. That’s not even getting into the other issues like health problems, environmental destruction, and pandemic and zoonotic disease potential.
I think it’s best not to mind people who try any level of veganism. Even if they are lying to themselves and others etc. if someone makes even the slightest effort that advances the vegan movement it works in our favor. You can see it happen in real time.
There are more vegan products on the market today that are widely used by people who don’t even want to be vegan. Plenty of people just prefer oat milk or almond milk or do it exclusively for health reasons. The vegan movement is a rare fringe movement that’s actually broken through. The more people choose to just do “everything vegan but bacon/cheese” the more the demand for vegan products grows and the more people are incentivized to stock their shelves with vegan food over expensive and expiration prone meat products. It’s a movement that’s happening because the trajectory is passively positive with no real social pushback. Maybe in another couple years we can even start to cut government subsidies to meat products in favor of vegan products.
Gatekeepers are the fucking worst. Every time I start reading up on something there’s always a handful of miserable condescending shitheads being nasty to people because they’re 'not ‘doing it right.’
Most vegan threads I come across usually has some of these, insulting anyone that’s not 100% on board even if they’re trying to get into it. Audiophiles are pretty much on the same level as hardcore vegans when it comes to being obnoxious (recently saw someone ask why the op was bothering setting up a music system if they didn’t have thousands of dollars to spare, for example). Linux users on support threads is a coin flip of whether they’ll be helpful or insulting.
Let people ease into things, stop demanding perfection right out of the gates!
I think that knowing the definition of veganism is the bare minimum. Gatekeeping is one thing, but you should at least know what the thing you’re trying to join is. If you’ve done zero research, that’s on you.
I support small changes for self improvement. Buying pints instead of fiths is a start.
Everything in moderation, including moderation.
Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly
what you believe is not shown by what you just tell yourself in your head, but shown by how you act. it means that if you say you believe in the ideals of veganism but can’t give up a meal of bacon for it, you simply don’t hold that value strong enough.
which is fine, its okay to be unsure about your values, but lets not confuse ourselves here by saying we can hold certain values without behaving like we actually do.
Sure, but there are really good vegan substitutes for bacon now. I think that tempeh bacon tastes better, and it’s healthier, too.
Healthier sure, but tastes better? Do you have a recommendation on a specific brand or do I need to make it myself?
Lightlife makes a good tempeh bacon.
I’d recommend seitan bacon over tempeh bacon. It’s made from gluten (wheat protein) that they make a dough with and fill with fat, seasoning, msg etc. to make it taste like bacon, and it fries really crispy like bacon. Upton is a brand I usually buy but I get it at a vegetarian grocery so not sure if it’s widely available, but any vegetarian bacon where the first ingredient is wheat gluten would be the same.
Dont get caught up in labels. If you want to vegetarian but don’t want to give up bacon just do it. Doesn’t matter what you label it it’s just a diet.
Moderation is my favorite word
I am very fun at parties
Duncan?
Are you referring to Duncan from Haha You Clowns ?
Cheese man.
Some people think the definition of “freegan” means dumper diving and a hardcore anti consumerist attitude, but it could also mean “I don’t buy meat, and am comfortable abstaining from it, but if it’s given to me/made for a party, I am not against eating what’s there.” which I like.
Oh! That’s what I’ve been doing. Works out fine and is easy to stick with.
Why do I have to eat your shit so you can feel better?
you dont!
I joined a group of people who wanted to eat more vegan/vegetarian. It was going fairly well, but then a guy joined the group who kept shaming us for eating any animal products, and a lot of us (myself included) dropped out. Shame.
I’ve started eating more fatty, sustainable fish, both for my health as well at the environment, and less red meat. Trying to do what I can.
There’s a lot of those types of people in this thread too it seems … like there’s no reason you should be getting downvoted …
Anyways, it reminds me of this chef that I watch. He has some awesome plant based recipes and stuff I follow. So good. Anyways, he did one video about how much he hates vegans despite being one. He was being hyperbolic but there was always the feeling of “never being vegan enough”. Some vocal vegans kept shaming him about his leather couch and just spewing vile stuff in the comments even to other vegans.
He later points out in the video that it was a vegan couch and he went through great lengths to acquire it and said that he went vegan because of his love of animals and that it was a journey. There’s always something to be doing and he didn’t just start off vegan and he started small. However, there’s just so many people that just love being vile instead of supporting each other on their journey.
It seems these more vocal vegans would rather feel good by shaming others instead of trying to push the cause forward.
I think it’s also that some people who take up a cause (or a way of living, or whatever you want to call it) feel the need to one up others doing the same. It’s a form a bringing yourself up by pulling others down, which isn’t a good way to exist.
fuck that guy. he sholdnt be affecting your food choices. the group shouls have just kicked him out and kept on.
If you’re doing it for the animals, it shouldn’t matter what some random asshole says. I’m not a vegan because I want to impress other vegans. I’m doing it to be more in alignment with my values.
We’re social animals. Peer pressure and support help us do basically everything in our lives. Not saying staying strong on your principles isn’t worth it but I understand the frustration when your support network isn’t there.
bingo
This is what I did. Now at home the only animal proteins i eat are fish/shellfish, cheese, and yogurt. I’m lucky enough to have easy access to imitation soy substitutes. On the rare occasion I go to a restaurant i will usually order a nice meat based meal.
But it probably helps i always thought chicken and cow were mid.
