After more than 32,000 speeding tickets were handed out in just three weeks by new automated speed enforcement cameras in community safety zones, council in the City of Vaughan decided to pause the program.
Mayor Steven Del Duca put forward the motion last week to pause the tickets until September, when council is due to receive a report from staff on ways the city can create more effective signage about the presence of cameras.
Nah, I’m advocating for people using the currently designed system to not be a bunch of slow and distracted morons.
The topic of completely gutting current city Laputa and restructuring them to be designed for pedestrian traffic at the forefront would be ideal, but was not the topic being discussed.
Design the roads so that they are unpleasant to use above the speed you are trying to achieve. This method has had great success in the Netherlands.
But then we can’t just cut and paste the same lane design regardless if it is a school zone or a freeway.
Last year, I think it was on the War on Cars podcast, their guest was a disillusioned traffic engineer that called his entire field “a fraud discipline.” Like they put absolutely no critical thought into their designs as long as they are built to the exacting code.
Love that podcast and I remeber them comparing the mentality they use for roads and how delusional it would be for just about any other engineering field to follow that mentality.
Do these designs have any impact on emergency vehicles? Or do they cost more to put in than a regular road? Do they make driving less efficient and cause more emissions? Can they be ignored like lights or stop signs?
I feel like speed cameras might be a better solution than speed bumps or other road barriers. Penalize the bad drivers up to and including taking away their driver’s license if they can’t comply with the rules, allow emergency vehicles to somewhat the need to do, and collect some revenue to offset the cost of enforcement of safety.
Traffic sign/signal camera are a good idea too. If you can’t/won’t follow the rules of the road, I think you should pay fines and eventually have your license removed. Cameras are a far more effective way to do that than officers.
Sounds like they were working as intended. In France they have speed cameras on the highway that average your speed over a distance and mail speeders tickets too, should be everywhere. Silly to stop such a wildly successful public safety campaign, if anything it’s clear this is a real problem and the program should be expanded. Why is signage needed? Follow the rules and don’t get a ticket is already a very well publicized concept, don’t speed and the cameras aren’t a problem
Over the summer months, when the cameras snap a pic of a speeder they will receive a warning in the mail rather than a fine. The city says it hopes the strategy will reduce driving speeds through awareness rather than punitive measures.
This is an intelligent and measured move. Make citizens aware that enforcement exists. Then, after making them aware that they’re being monitored, turn on fines. The goal is to reduce speeding drivers, not to collect revenue.
The goal is to reduce speeding drivers, not to collect revenue.
Then there’s cities like Winnipeg where successive city halls have decided that speeding tickets are the bestest cash cow ever!
That cash should go directly into the city to redesign these problems roadways created for cars into streets designed for people.
It should be 1 warning then you get tickets. Right now speeders can keep getting as many warnings as they want and wait to hear on the news when the fines will be implemented.
Most people I know get several 11-15km over tickets all at once a month after the infraction. They’ve already noticed or been told about the machine by the time they get the first ticket, and adjusted their driving.
That’s a better approach. Cheers.
Or, fix the speed limit problem? If a lot of people are doing a certain limit through an area, clearly the limit is the problem… Cities keep lowering speed limits everywhere when traffic seems to struggle to reach limits in the first place. Not sure what exactly they’re expecting to have happen.
Pedestrain safety becomes a concern at higher speeds. Collisons become more intense and more deadly as speed increases. The drivers are the problem, not the speed limit.
If the cars aren’t able to reach the limit due to traffic, how did the cameras hand out so many speeding tickets?
At 30kph, a pedestrian hit by a car survives 90% of the time.
At 50kph, it’s 50/50 if a pedestrian dies.
At 70kph, it’s 90/10 dead body.
As someone in that lucky 10%, I’m all for more enforcement of speed limits.
Wow fuck cars all roads should be 30kph
Great, so set the limits to 70kmh so pedestrians stop being so careless, or lower the limits and put more pedestrian crossings in place.
I walk and drive frequently. Pedestrian safety is important, but we shouldn’t be coddling morons who can’t be safe pedestrians. What the fuck happened to looking both ways and nkt wearing headphones etc? Pedestrian safety has gone to the wayside and instead we’re going after drivers?
When did these cameras catch the drivers? Was it during rush hour or was it at 3am when there was little traffic on the road in the first place? How much over the limit were these people doing? There’s an awful lot of important data missing here.
And yes, the drivers are absolutely the problem yet we keep lowering the limits instead of pulling the shit drivers with 0 reflex and the reaction time of a potato off the road.
Not sure what exactly they’re expecting to have happen.
Great opportunity to go inform yourself then :-)
Inform myself of what? The 10 year old crossing the empty street at 3am on a school night? Sure…
If other cars would just fucking do the limit and not take years to get there, there would be far less speeding. I know I’m mostly doing it to make up for lost time from all the dumb fucks I’m stuck behind/beside because they can’t keep the fuck up with traffic
Hundo, and if the person I let in front of me drives like shit, I’ll hope that there isn’t also an idiot blocking me in so I can get around them.
Aaand there it is. You’re a speeder and therefore a dangerous driver and refuse to take responsibility for the fact that you are making roadways more dangerous for yourself and everyone around you. You don’t see yourself as a bad person, so the fact that people like you could get punished for behaving in a way you think is fine and redeemabke makes you angry. You’re impatient and want to save a few minutes of “lost time” from traffic and believe the solution is to speed rather than leaving a few minutes earlier, advocating for traffic calming measures, fewer cards on the road, more effective roadways, effective public transportation etc. all of which would make it safer and easier for everyone, including yourself, to make it where they need to go on time.
Boy, nothing gets by you eh? I was pretty overt from the get-go that I tend to drive slightly above the limit when it is safe to do so.
As for people who can accelerate and people who speed being the biggest danger on the road, I’d say the people retarding the flow of traffic, the people who expect us all to be psychic and know when they’re about to change lanes without a blinker, and the people turning left on a long yellow light or sneaking in behind on the red are far, far worse.
It’s difficult living in a world of mentally slow people who can’t process for shit, so there’s no sense trying to argue with you here. Just keep driving like a putz and enjoy the fact that while you can’t grasp the concept of a blinker or reaching the limit, cops are aggressively going after people who can reach limits and are able to process things at an above average rate.
It’s so telling that when I say speeding is dangerous, you believe that I don’t also think that not using your blinkers, not leaving the left lane for passing, and running red lights is dangerous. Take responsibility for your actions instead of building a strawman to feel justified in your behaviour.
Nah, there is no strawman in my point. Speeding is not an issue - especially on streets that have gone from 80 down to 60. Of everybody on the road, speeders are the least of my concern, even before I had my license though back then there was also far more bitching about slow walkers, too.
Sorry you don’t have the reaction speed to handle driving a vehicle at a moderate pace. I hope you stick to side streets for your own safety.
Road ways are designed with something like a safety factor where a 50kph road way Is safe up to 80kph. It’s just reduced for those stunned types of us.
Designing a 50 zone to be safe at 80 is a big part of why our roads are dangerous and we need to address mass speeding. On a highway it make sense to give more wiggle room with speed, the same is not true for residential roads or school zones.
Try understanding. The road was already designed to be safe at 80kph. They lower it down to 50kph because of folks such as the ones who brake at the green light because the count down timer for the walk signal hit zero. Or the ones who don’t know where the fuck they are going, panick miss their turn and slam on the fucking brakes in the middle of a 3 lane road instead of pulling a u-turn 100m up the road. Then they try the bulshit of traffic calming shit by retiming the lights so every light in 10km stretch will be red when you get to it. Fucking phenomenal way to prevent irritation.
The real reason is the local politicians and their families started getting tickets too, and they’re not happy. So the program has been put on pause.
Ding Ding Ding.
If they had given council members a device to shut off the cameras for themselves and rich donors then they wouldn’t have shut it down.
Maybe they should consider changing the speed limits a bit.
Maybe they should consider changing the speed limits a bit.
Or, hear me out, people could make the needle on their dash point at the same number as the one printed on the giant white signs all over.
The solution is better road-way design and classifications.
Changing a speed limit sign on a roadway does not change the roadways “designed” or “perceived” speed limit.
When changing signage, the roadway also need to change.
Example, you can’t increase the signed speed limit to 100 kph on a residential street without first a complete redesign of said street into a hwy. This is done by removing driveways, speedbumps, crosswalks, stop signs, and roundabouts. Without this redesign of the roadway this residential street would not make a really good hwy. The exact reverse is true. A hwy does not make a good residential street.
People always say that, and while yes it is true that wider lanes, less intersections, and less roadside hazards do make the road feel like you can speed, use your goddamn speedometer.
People are thinking breathing creatures. Idgaf if the road feels like I could go 100km/hr, if the sign says 50, I’m not flying at 100 down the road because I can think and be aware. At the end of the day, speeding is a CHOICE. Road design can make it feel slow or painful to do the speed limit, but if you can’t override that feeling and pay attention while driving, you don’t deserve a license.
We need a mix of both. Yes people should be following the rules, but the truth is some people don’t and with how normalized driving is, testing standards are pretty relaxed. Most people were tested as teenagers and now just rely on getting tickets to keep us in line, meanwhile many trades and certificates require retesting to stay valid. It would be horrendously expensive to retest drivers, but i think regular retesting should be done and the bill should be paid for by the drivers.
Currently it feels just as safe to do 80 in most 60 zones. Changing the design to make speeding feel more risky and feel unsafe will reduce speeding and let people rely less on their speedometers.
My coworker doesn’t like to speed. His new van doesn’t have cruise control. The 10 speed automatic transmission can let you creep from 100 to 115/120 pretty easily and relatively unnoticeably on an empty road. He complains how half his time driving hes constantly checking the speedometer and feels he is paying less attention to the roadway because of that. This issue isn’t as simple as check the speedometer more often. Vehicle and roadway design plays a factor as well.
For sure! One of those changes requires money and time, and one requires people to pay attention. Should be an easy choice which should get implemented now vs in 5-10yrs.
I dislike the infantalization of the public, and the idea that people can’t be trusted, so we should make the roads such that they NEED to follow the limit feels stupid.
now just rely on getting tickets to keep us in line, I mean if thats our system and there isn’t enough push to retest us regularly, then yeah, I’m not opposed to getting tickets. My city has installed them throughout our community safety zones, and I got dinged once at 8km.hr over. Sure, it sucks, but I was the one in the wrong. The idea of removing them, or me saying its the fault of the road design is ridiculous. I chose to go that speed, largely because we’ve been able to speed at 5-10km/hr over the speed limit with no consequences for my entire adult life. Now I see a community safety zone and I go the speed limit, regardless of where I am or what the road ‘feels’ like I can drive.
The 10 speed automatic transmission can let you creep from 100 to 115/120 pretty easily and relatively unnoticeably on an empty road.
If he’s on a highway, then learn what 100 feels like in your new car. It’s an adjustment. I work in road design, and the safety standards that are required when designing highways trump concerns over speeding. People are bad judges of what is a ‘safe’ speed, and building highways around how fast people feel comfortable going leads to more accidents and more dangerous accidents.
That being said, I’m all for narrowing lanes, adding MUPs or widening sidewalks, all of which can occur at the same time. But the transportation master plan and/or asset management queue is built up for the next ~10 years (minimum), and updating or changing that is a very expensive process most places dont have the money for.
From the article, New Westminster Drive was the highest (9,000+ tickets). The road was redone in 2015 (with no changes to the alignment or width). That means they’re likely looking at a minimum of 15+ years before they’ll rebuild the road, which is whats required to adjust curblines, narrow the road, or otherwise change the alignment. Likewise Ansley Grove Road was redone in 2010, and won’t be rebuilt for 10+years.
Those roads are all four lane urban roads with few intersecting streets and long stretches for motorists to get up to speed. Speed enforcement is the simplest and fastest method to address the problem now. Sure, petition your local council to change what their standard road cross section is, but that won’t change anything for 15+ years. ___
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council is due to receive a report from staff on ways the city can create more effective signage about the presence of cameras.
Are you fucking kidding me?
It’s like pointing out to thieves where all the cameras in a bank are.
The speed limit sign is the only information drivers need. If they are going faster, it’s a ticket.
These automated speed cameras seem to be working exactly as intended. The 32,000 speeders can go fuck right off.
I mean I think its fine if people “know” the places they have to slow down for the cameras, if those places pose a greater risk of damage/injury from speeding than others.
Sometimes I see police cruisers on the side of the road flashing their lights on which seems like a similar principle: they aren’t trying to catch anyone but they are trying to slow them down through the area and it’s effective.
I mean I think its fine if people “know” the places they have to slow down for the cameras
What that does is cause people to slow down where the cameras are, then speed up where they aren’t.
If drivers assume that cameras are everywhere, watching and waiting to ticket them, maybe they’ll just go the posted speed limit.
If we just assume the government is always watching everything we do, there will be no crime! Let’s install cameras everywhere, including in your home, and we can get to 0% crime! What could go wrong?
Driving is a
rightprivilage, not aprivilegeright.Speed enforcement cameras (and red light cameras) are doing something that we don’t have the money to do via traffic officers.
Roads should be watched and laws enforced. Because people killing people with their vehicle shouldn’t be something we view as normal or acceptable, IMO.
Edit: fixed glaring mistake.
Driving is not a right. Not everyone is entitled to it. Blind people, people under 16, people with certain health conditions, people who have had too many DUIs.
I agree with the rest of your comment but driving isn’t a right, we’ve just built a society where it feels like we have to treat it as a right to be fair.
Doh, I got that reversed 🫣 Corrected now.
I don’t get cameras except as a way to get fines money. If you wanted to actually slow traffic, you’d spend that infrastructure money on calming measures that work immediately and constantly. Cameras take effect weeks after the offence (in a small number of people) and only serves to make people watch for cameras instead of the traffic around them. Cameras have a very small area of effect and only for people that see them or know where they are.
If the point is just to punish speeders, make money, and not fix the problem, then by all means, install a few cameras.
The cost of a couple of cameras is significantly less investment and significantly less disruption than the needed infrastructure changes. We are talking 10s of thousands to operate the cameras versus millions to rehabilitate just 1 road. We need to fight for roads to be upgraded to safer standards when they are due for repaving.
Speed bumps and chicanes aren’t millions of dollars. In older neighborhoods with straight streets, block off straight shots and make people drive around to get through; that prevents shortcutting. Bollards and rubber speedbumps are hundreds of dollars.
I’m cynical; I think municipalities depend on photo radar for revenue and aren’t actually going to do what it takes to slow people down when they could get money instead. And if I were really cynical, I’d say the camera companies put them in on percentage, but I can’t confirm that.
All I know know is that I only needed to get one speeding ticket for me to never speed again.
And that was in a speed trap, not because I wanted to be an ass on the road. An 80km/h country road suddenly turned to 50km/h without a warning, and I was already slowing down…
That was over 20 years ago, but I digress.
If people are constantly getting tickets, they should have mandatory driving school and a retest. But still ticket them so their habit can pay for better infrastructure in the meantime 🤑
IDK where you live, but where I am you get demerits and after a certain number you get a suspension and need to take a course to get your license back. But cameras don’t count to demerits, so if you have enough money, speed away. Taking that money for cameras and putting cops on the ground handing out demeritable tickets would accomplish something; cameras do not.
I’d love to see enforcement that leads to demerit points. But you need a revenue stream to pay for officers on the ground, and nobody wants to pay more in taxes to compensate.
Either we use the revenue to fund traffic cops, or we set fines high enough (but proportional to income or net worth) in order for it to be self-sufficient.
We’re far too lenient on drivers that can’t drive safely.
The idea of speed cameras is to get drivers to slow down. To have 30k tickets after their install shows that they’re not doing the job of getting people to slow down.
Its only been 3 weeks and we don’t have much data on how many of them were repeat offenders. We need to give more time for peoples driving habits to adapt to the consequences.
The cameras are much cheaper than cops are for the same level of enforcement and the revenue can be used to further invest in roadway safety like lane narrowing and traffic calming.
The truth is, the speeding issue has been many years in the making as enforcement hasn’t been able to keep up with the number of drivers and 15-20 over became normalized. We aren’t going to reverse that trend in just 3 weeks.
We need to give more time for peoples driving habits to adapt to the consequences.
Absolutely. And increase signage and do the other things. Council doesn’t want to look like they’re praying on constituents to raise funds. The goal is to reduce speed, not increase revenue. I feel like taking a moment to assess the situation is a rational approach.
The idea of speed cameras is to get drivers to slow down.
It’s one strategy that works for some people. Speed bumps work for others. Narrow streets work for others. And so on.
It’s also one of the least expensive ways to deter speeding, recoup the costs of infrastructure, and enforce the law.
To have 30k tickets after their install shows that they’re not doing the job of getting people to slow down.
They just installed them! It’s not like the same people are getting 100 tickets. At least, I hope not. If they are, mandatory retest should be required to drive again.
I think the takeaway is that speed cameras won’t deter speeding because it’s endemic and engrained in the traffic flow. Perhaps the thoughtful pause will determine that traffic calming measures like medians and speed bumps are required. Maybe they’ll install spike strips and speed sensing missiles. Probably a good idea to go to Council meetings to find out.
I think the takeaway is that speed cameras won’t deter speeding
That’s not true.
Numerous cities report lower overall speeds, and a reduction in traffic collisions when automated cameras are deployed.
For example, https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/annoying-thing-speed-cameras-ottawa-they-work-1.6786951 and https://www.sudbury.com/local-news/speed-cameras-proved-effective-at-latest-locations-10758040.
When my city installed the first speed camera, it clocked over 100,000 speeders in 40 days. Unfortunately, we gave drivers a grace period, so no fines were issued at the beginning.
But in those areas, speeding was reduced.
I’d rather have roads designed to be slow and require attention to navigate, but good luck getting anyone to listen to that. Trying to get any speed reduction strategies to be implemented is very difficult because of NIMBYs.
I guess I misspoke. I meant to say that they aren’t detering speeding yet.
In my rural area they are putting 50km signs in the middle of the road on the yellow lines. Makes you feel like you’re threading a needle.
In my rural area they are putting 50km signs in the middle of the road on the yellow lines. Makes you feel like you’re threading a needle.
I like that idea!
We have something similar in a few spots around here using flexible bollards.
It’s a Skill issue, just don’t speed, it’s literally so easy. If you can’t control your speed just take the bus or a taxi!!
It is also a infrastructure issue. When the lane of a 40km road is built exactly as a freeway lane and drivers have been allowed to creep the average speed to 15-20 over the limit, it can literally feel like you’re the one doing wrong when doing the limit as most other cars fly past you.
The psychological effects of lane size, other vehicle speeds, and overall roadway design needs to be considered if we actually want to make our streets safer.
and drivers have been allowed to creep the average speed to 15-20 over the limit, it can literally feel like you’re the one doing wrong when doing the limit as most other cars fly past you.
I agree. Other vehicles speed is a major factor in your comfort and safety when driving. Which is why this ticketing is soooo effective. Thousands of tickets, with 24/7 coverage, applied without needing a cop standing there and literally ticketing each one individually?
I’d lay good money that those areas will see a drastic speed reduction within the next month or two, once drivers receive their fines.
When 80 zones go down to 70 and 60 zones fuck that shit. New houses got built, the limit was 80 if people don’t like living near an 80kmh road, don’t buy that house… It was bad enough being forced to do 60-70 because people took ages to get up to the limit when it was 80. Now we’re doing 50-60 because the same people struggle to get up to speed once again.
How about everywhere that isn’t a side street just becomes an 80 zone and we start aggressively ticketing distracted drivers, distracted pedestrians, and people who can’t handle things like driving in the correct lane, and people who can’t properly use a turn indicator? You know, the actual problems…
Ticketing distracted pedestrians? What kinda garbage city do you wanna live in lmao
Out of curiosity, what do you view as a well designed city that would be a good example of what you want to see more of
I walk as much as I drive. The people I see crossing the street while staring at their phone and/or wearing headphones is wild. As are the Leo who stand as close to the edge of the sidewalk as possible waiting for the light of to change, but you can’t do much there.
You also get people crossing when the hand is up, which should also be a ticketable offense.
Not a garbage city, a city with equal responsibility and accountability.
If we’re going to push for lower speed limits then I want to see adequate crosswalks, and vehicles and pedestrians being equally fined for infractions.
Neither activity is difficult business, yet we have a staggering amount of people driving who shouldn’t be, and pedestrians who are gonna end up in the hospital due to their own stupidity.
So no example of a city that has successfully implemented all these ideas and was better for it?
Because there’s lots of cities that have successfully done mostly the opposite and are better for it (Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Montreal, Paris, Bergen, Oulu, etc)
Sure, if you’re going to make the city fully designed for pedestrians and cyclists, with proper public transit connecting cities that would be fantastic.
Shit, Europe also has the Autobahn, but we’d be fucked if we tried to have a highway like that over here.
You say it sounds good, yet you’re advocating for the exact opposite design principles 🤔
And as I’m sure you’re aware, Montreal isn’t in Europe lol but it’s pretty great
