She finds the whole idea absurd. To Prof Marci Shore, the notion that the Guardian, or anyone else, should want to interview her about the future of the US is ridiculous. She’s an academic specialising in the history and culture of eastern Europe and describes herself as a “Slavicist”, yet here she is, suddenly besieged by international journalists keen to ask about the country in which she insists she has no expertise: her own. “It’s kind of baffling,” she says.
In fact, the explanation is simple enough. Last month, Shore, together with her husband and fellow scholar of European history, Timothy Snyder, and the academic Jason Stanley, made news around the world when they announced that they were moving from Yale University in the US to the University of Toronto in Canada. It was not the move itself so much as their motive that garnered attention. As the headline of a short video op-ed the trio made for the New York Times put it, “We Study Fascism, and We’re Leaving the US”.
Starkly, Shore invoked the ultimate warning from history. “The lesson of 1933 is: you get out sooner rather than later.” She seemed to be saying that what had happened then, in Germany, could happen now, in Donald Trump’s America – and that anyone tempted to accuse her of hyperbole or alarmism was making a mistake. “My colleagues and friends, they were walking around and saying, ‘We have checks and balances. So let’s inhale, checks and balances, exhale, checks and balances.’ I thought, my God, we’re like people on the Titanic saying, ‘Our ship can’t sink. We’ve got the best ship. We’ve got the strongest ship. We’ve got the biggest ship.’ And what you know as a historian is that there is no such thing as a ship that can’t sink.”
It’s quite a silly thing to get all high and mighty about. You don’t have that person’s life or thoughts/feelings.
It didn’t sound high and mighty to me. She left a position of influence and (some small amount) of power just when shit is starting to get real. Fair weather patriot. Best of luck in Toronto. I’ll stay here with the hundreds of millions for whom leaving isn’t a viable option.
Uh ok
I don’t need to know anything about this person to know that leaving is the cowards choice. She’s telling everyone else who can’t leave that they aren’t as important and they have to sort this out without her. Don’t try to spin that as some sort of noble act. We win together or we lose apart. I don’t want to hear any lectures on history or morailty from people who would rather save themselves than help their fellow citizens.
when my jewish grandfather learned that he wasnt allowed to hold a job anymore he fled germany before ww2 and he begged his then fiance to come with him. she insisted that it will be fine and if and when things get bad she will join him in america, and if they didn’t he should go back to live with her in germany.
Want to know how that turned out for his fiance?
Is your grandfather’s survival any consolation to the 6 million Jews that died during the Holocaust? Could he have helped more of them survive by staying? I don’t know the answer to those questions but I do know that if that’s what we’re facing in America I would rather face it head on with my fellow citizens than hide away in another country watching it happen to them.
he joined the army to fight the nazis so, yea it was better then him perishing in a camp alongside his entire family
Cool, if this lady joins an eventual Canadian-American liberation force then she can have a pass. Otherwise she’s still a coward who cares more about saving herself than helping her fellow citizens.
Nope, how logical a decision is doesn’t get decided afterwards and conditionally.
It’s decided based on what information they had at that point. The dude’s grandpa knew it was the right choice to get out. Even if he hadn’t fought, it would’ve been the right choice.
Or are you saying that if the girl his grandpa was after had come with him, that it would’ve only been acceptable had that girl then joined the US military to fight the Nazis, a hundred years ago? And if she hadn’t, then it would’ve still been the right decision for the grandpa to bail from Germany to fight the Nazis, but it would’ve been a wrong decision for the girl?
Yes, I get social responsibility, but you’re being literally unreasonable.
Frame it how you want but I’ll never agree that it’s unreasonable to expect citizens of a democracy to stand and fight rather than run away at the first sign of a threat to their democracy. That’s cowardly behavior through and through. The people who fought and died for us to have this democracy would be ashamed of such behavior and those are the people I’m looking to for inspiration right now, not people who can’t be bothered to stand beside me.
it was more along the lines of–according to grandpappy–people denying that they were about to be all exterminated and it was overblown by cowards as you call them versus people who got out when the gettin’ was good to fight back with better gear, in a better country, in a better environment where people took the threat seriously. Of course only after the japanese attacked. the US didn’t give a shit until then.
go ahead, stand up for your country, krashmo. Lets see you put your money where your mouth is. Do it. post it online so we can all see how much of a hypocrite you are when you do nothing
No-one claimed as much. I certainly didn’t even imply such.
And which one do you consider a democracy, Nazi Germany or the US? Because according to academics, neither are.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B
And that’s from over ten years ago.
Should’ve, would’ve, could’ve.
Frame it however you want but I would never agree to willfully stand inside a burning house.
And to a lot of people, the US is looking worse than a house-fire. So I commend you for your will to fight against such bullshit, but I definitely don’t blame anyone for bailing out.
You feeling personally attacked here isn’t the person’s fault, who, btw, I am not saying is doing something noble. Just pointing out how weird it is that you’re acting this way about it.
You started this conversation by saying that I’m making armchair judgements about this person. If you understand how serious the situation is and you agree with what I’ve said about what our response should be then you should be annoyed with her for running away while preaching about the danger we’re in too. If my house is on fire don’t lecture me from a safe distance about how to spot the smoke earlier, grab a fucking bucket.
Dude, if your house is on fire, feel free to leave and feel free to give lectures on fire safety afterwards. No one can hear your wise words if you’re dead.
This is the choice the intellectuals, the socialists and more than anyone else, the Jews faced in Nazi Germany. Stay and be removed from your homes by the racial purity police or leave.
So your problem is mainly with her not shutting up? I am not annoyed. If I had the means I’d move to europe, and nothing is wrong with that at ALL.
Everything is wrong with that and if you don’t see that then maybe I should move to Europe and leave you all to fend for yourselves. Your attitude of “fuck everyone else, I’m getting out of here” seems to be the prevailing sentiment in this thread and if that’s the case then there’s no point in fighting because you guys won’t do shit for each other thinking like that.
Not everyone is the same. But I do believe if it were easy, like 20%-30% of americans would move tomorrow. Probably 10% would’ve in 2015, then Trump + republicans have accelerated the downfall like no other time afaik.
It’s difficult to move to another country for so many reasons. Most people staying aren’t some holier-than-thou keyboard warriors pretending to be super pure in all of their actions. They simply cannot leave for 17 reasons. But that doesn’t mean we need to hate those who can… I don’t know what gave you the idea that it’s your place to tell others what their priorities have to be, but it’s misguided af. Your message: “if you aren’t collectivist to the point that you’d risk death, well then FUCK YOU”.
Most of us have our limits, even if we wanted to be the type of person you require everyone to be to avoid being labelled a piece of shit. If you could easily move, you yourself I suspect might not be saying all of this shit. It’s just easy to sit back and judge everyone by this ideal you have created as the minimum. Sad way of living, tbh
Oh stop making excuses for cowards. I’m tired of hearing it. You guys on Lemmy are supposed to be the principled people who think about the deeper problems facing society and are willing to make some sacrifices to solve those problems and even you are stumbling all over yourselves to justify throwing your morals away in favor of a few more years living as a refugee. This country was founded on the belief that fighting tyranny was worth dying for and if you’ve all abandoned those ideals to the point that you’re willing to run away from an 80 year old fascist and his band of hillbilly supporters then America is already dead. You might as well give up now because you clearly don’t have what it takes to fight at all, much less win.
This is the kind of political purity nonsense that had people saying that the democrats should lose the election because of Gaza. That turned out great didn’t it!
No one really cares about your judgements.