Still wrong, it’s capitalism. Without them, there would be different people in the same position. Hate the game, not the player. Well, hate the game and the player but don’t expect change from exchanging the player
Important to note that those people would be acutely aware of how vulnerable said position is. People act differently when they’re reminded of their own mortality.
They aren’t talking about expecting change. They are talking about demanding change at gunpoint, and honestly I can’t say I’m entirely opposed.
These people are completely unaffected by the law or any other form of consequences. They have removed our capability to peacefully take action, but the less-peaceful option is always there and there are legions more of us.
Nope, since the industrial revolution we had capitalism, communism, feudalism and a bunch of others, and they all destroyed the environment. Norilsk was a nightmare well before the wall went up. London had unbreathable air a century before that.
I’m really trying to read a coherent argument into your comments which you’re not making easy. You said that “all economic systems we tried so far destroy the environment” which is demonstrably false as you kind of acknowledged by now. All economic systems that grew out of the industrial revolution did, which is a very different statement. Or is your point that economy started at that point? Which is kind of true because seeing economy as a separate sphere outside of social life and ethics is relatively new. I think Adam Smith popularized that idea in his book “An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations” in 1776.
And I’m still not sure what your conclusion is. You don’t seem to blame the industrial revolution but see it as a given not even worth mentioning. Neither do you see it worth interrogating, how and why each system does what it does. The industrial revolution is about two centuries ago. We know about climate change for less than one century. Pollution is a different story but at least its long term consequences were not obvious 200 years ago. This is nothing in historical scales. Money exists in one shape or another for 5000 years. Even feudalism existed much longer (than the industrial revolution). Yet, you are sure we tried everything and there is no alternative. Nothing we can do. There is no hope.
Let me end with a quote of a very great author:
“We live in capitalism. Its power seems inescapable. So did the divine right of kings. Any human power can be resisted and changed by human beings. Resistance and change often begin in art, and very often in our art, the art of words.”
If you want actual examples, almost all societies before 1800 we’re not capitalist. Feudal society wasn’t capitalist, neither was Roman society. Hunter gather society by most accounts was a form of primitive communism, and that is the vast majority of human history.
Sure, but before that was feudalism, or similar systems where the state owned the means of production with no competition besides foreign powers and sometimes the church. Capitalism doesn’t give much power to workers, but it’s definitely more than serfdom.
any socialist society will be inherently disadvantaged by the fact that the global hegemon, the USA, is hellbent on destroying them. so, given that, maybe the soviet union? china? they certainly aren’t perfect, soviet union especially, but any future socialist project can (and should) learn from their successes and mistakes
By that definition, Roman Empire? Which lasted pretty damn long, by similar methods. Imperialism. A government that has at least a veneer of responsibility to the populace.
I mean there’s big differences, but more similarities imo.
I’m pretty sure what most people are referring to here is unfettered capitalism. It’s not an on/off switch, you can have certain aspects of one thing combined with the other.
We need regulated capitalism. I don’t mind working for money. Most lemmys would like to smoke weed all day and not do shit. World dont work like that kids.
Capitalism with regulation and taxation of billionaires. Welfare state for the sick and elderly. Why is this so hard? We don’t need communism.
Cooperatives are the best answer. Capitalists will argue they should outcompete traditional firms in the market. If they’re supposed to be better they’d win, right? But the thing is they’re only better for most people… and not the few richest that benefit the most from the current capitalist system. And everyone’s too damn brainwashed to understand private ownership of the means of production is the root cause of so many problems. But let’s just regulate capitalism.
If cooperatives goal is to provide for its members and community while a traditional firms goal is profit maximization, regulation fixes nothing.
Okay how do you stop the capitalist who run our government and all of our economic production from getting rid of that welfare once their profits dry up? They own the military and all of its assets btw.
The treats they gave us have been a concession from the start. They were given because we put up enough of a fight that the capitalists worried not giving them to us would be worse. They will take them away if we don’t keep that fight, and its implicit threat, going. I don’t want all of our future generations for the rest of time to have to keep up that fight.
Still wrong, it’s capitalism. Without them, there would be different people in the same position. Hate the game, not the player. Well, hate the game and the player but don’t expect change from exchanging the player
Important to note that those people would be acutely aware of how vulnerable said position is. People act differently when they’re reminded of their own mortality.
They aren’t talking about expecting change. They are talking about demanding change at gunpoint, and honestly I can’t say I’m entirely opposed.
These people are completely unaffected by the law or any other form of consequences. They have removed our capability to peacefully take action, but the less-peaceful option is always there and there are legions more of us.
Yes, the Soviet union and China ran/run on unicorn powder and butterflies. Surely capitalism and those 90 guys are the problem.
Me criticizing one thing doesn’t mean you get to pick another thing I supposedly like
No, I’m just pointing out that all economic systems we tried so far destroy the environment, it’s not specifically capitalisms fault.
For some people, history ended with the fall of the Berlin Wall which is already laughable. For you, history started with its building.
Nope, since the industrial revolution we had capitalism, communism, feudalism and a bunch of others, and they all destroyed the environment. Norilsk was a nightmare well before the wall went up. London had unbreathable air a century before that.
So history started with the industrial revolution, I see.
Environment destruction did at scale.
I’m really trying to read a coherent argument into your comments which you’re not making easy. You said that “all economic systems we tried so far destroy the environment” which is demonstrably false as you kind of acknowledged by now. All economic systems that grew out of the industrial revolution did, which is a very different statement. Or is your point that economy started at that point? Which is kind of true because seeing economy as a separate sphere outside of social life and ethics is relatively new. I think Adam Smith popularized that idea in his book “An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations” in 1776.
And I’m still not sure what your conclusion is. You don’t seem to blame the industrial revolution but see it as a given not even worth mentioning. Neither do you see it worth interrogating, how and why each system does what it does. The industrial revolution is about two centuries ago. We know about climate change for less than one century. Pollution is a different story but at least its long term consequences were not obvious 200 years ago. This is nothing in historical scales. Money exists in one shape or another for 5000 years. Even feudalism existed much longer (than the industrial revolution). Yet, you are sure we tried everything and there is no alternative. Nothing we can do. There is no hope.
Let me end with a quote of a very great author:
― Ursula K. Le Guin
What’s your best, longest-lived example of a society without capitalism? Do you have any?
By capitalism, I mean
“private individuals or companies that own and control businesses and property”, the simplest definition of capitalism
Tell me you’ve never studied history pre-1800 without telling me you’ve never studied history pre-1800.
Tell me you don’t have a clue without telling me you don’t have a clue
If you want actual examples, almost all societies before 1800 we’re not capitalist. Feudal society wasn’t capitalist, neither was Roman society. Hunter gather society by most accounts was a form of primitive communism, and that is the vast majority of human history.
Capitalism was literally invented in the last few hundred years.
Sure, but before that was feudalism, or similar systems where the state owned the means of production with no competition besides foreign powers and sometimes the church. Capitalism doesn’t give much power to workers, but it’s definitely more than serfdom.
Bad definition of Capitalism. This existed in Feudal states. Simple definitions are rarely the ones to use.
Then provide your preferred definition of capitalism and answer?
Using your preferred definition of capitalism, what is the best, longest-lived example of a society without capitalism?
This is an honest question… I can’t think of any nation that has existed without it, so I asked.
any socialist society will be inherently disadvantaged by the fact that the global hegemon, the USA, is hellbent on destroying them. so, given that, maybe the soviet union? china? they certainly aren’t perfect, soviet union especially, but any future socialist project can (and should) learn from their successes and mistakes
Collective ownership is very common (no pun intended) global and throughout history
That’s not the simplest definition because it’s not the definition of capitalism at all. You can have property ownership without capitalism.
You have mercantilism and other forms of private business without capitalism. A yeoman making something and selling it isn’t capitalism.
Your definition is intentionally bad because you do in fact have to separate capitalism from just the very generic concept of private enterprise.
By that definition, Roman Empire? Which lasted pretty damn long, by similar methods. Imperialism. A government that has at least a veneer of responsibility to the populace.
I mean there’s big differences, but more similarities imo.
I’m pretty sure what most people are referring to here is unfettered capitalism. It’s not an on/off switch, you can have certain aspects of one thing combined with the other.
No one ever does.
We need regulated capitalism. I don’t mind working for money. Most lemmys would like to smoke weed all day and not do shit. World dont work like that kids.
Capitalism with regulation and taxation of billionaires. Welfare state for the sick and elderly. Why is this so hard? We don’t need communism.
Cooperatives are the best answer. Capitalists will argue they should outcompete traditional firms in the market. If they’re supposed to be better they’d win, right? But the thing is they’re only better for most people… and not the few richest that benefit the most from the current capitalist system. And everyone’s too damn brainwashed to understand private ownership of the means of production is the root cause of so many problems. But let’s just regulate capitalism.
If cooperatives goal is to provide for its members and community while a traditional firms goal is profit maximization, regulation fixes nothing.
Okay how do you stop the capitalist who run our government and all of our economic production from getting rid of that welfare once their profits dry up? They own the military and all of its assets btw.
The treats they gave us have been a concession from the start. They were given because we put up enough of a fight that the capitalists worried not giving them to us would be worse. They will take them away if we don’t keep that fight, and its implicit threat, going. I don’t want all of our future generations for the rest of time to have to keep up that fight.