Of course you weren’t. You just refuse to revisit imperial-centric view of history, and chose to defend the day when ~100 Million people were betrayed by 2 nations. All in defend of upvoting possibly the worse person that ever lived.
I have no doubt’s about your good intentions. But I don’t understand why learning that things have nuances and that victors tend to color their victory narrative makes you defensive.
If upvoting Stalin don’t make you sick to your stomach, you didn’t have a chance to learn about him enought.
chose to defend the day when ~100 Million people were betrayed by 2 nations.
I didn’t realise poland was that big /s
But I don’t understand why learning that things have nuances and that victors tend to color their victory narrative makes you defensive.
I do understand. I get that Stalin installed an authoritarian puppet and abused poland and was just another invasion to the poles and etc etc etc. I get that the iron curtain states were abused and stripped of resources and maimed and another zillion things.
I get that , just like every person that leaves a place with a left wing dictator, Poland now hates anything remotely left wing, or fucking whatever.
As a side note, I even know the polish contribtions made in the allied “free” countries like britain, where they helped the RAF, and with doing heavy lifting for decoding the enigma machine and a zillion other things that I am unaware of the specifics of.
But if you think for a second that having hitler keep poland as lebensraum , continue to literally liquidate polish people and other slavs they saw as untermenchen and have nazi germany continue existing would have been better for anyone; poles, jews, other europeans, would have been better, you are the one that needs to re-examine their ideas and interpretation of history.
Casualties
Around 5.5 million[1] to 6 million killed[a][2]
2 million ethnic Poles
3 million Polish Jews
1 million Polish citizens with other nationality
If you want to say that perpetuating this beyond six years, and being under the nazis indefinitely , would have been better than being under the soviets, and stalin specifically for 8 more years, I have nothing further to add, you are too far in the sauce to talk reason to.
Pointing out your ignorance is a great use of sarcasm. It was not just Poland, obviously.
Poland don’t hate everything remotly left wing. I consider leftist. We are not found of comunism, but a socialism find and well. Many thing that you’d consider lefty we consider central, basicly normal or civil right (like universal health care, maternity leave, free higher education, etc). But we are not found of dictatorship, genecides, tyrany and basic fucking monsters who -just an example - deliberetly starved millions.of Ukrainians.
Did you know that the same pilots were not allowed to participate in the victory parade? Most of them never saw home again.
You seems to make an argument that this was either one or another. Putting aside that you ask to split hairs between two most inhuman system in human history. I encourage you to google soviet crimes on occupied Poland during WW2… Did you took a second to do it? Google Katyn Massacre while you at it. Or did you forget that Stalin was hitler’s ally at first and that they attacked Poland together? Or did they still teach you that WW2 started at Pearl Harbor? American exceptionalism didn’t stop you for a moment from assuming that decimation of my nation would be something I know about? And maybe the 1st Wikipedia page wouldnt be something revelatory to me? This is, “I’ll teach this Italian people in Italy how to make REAL expresso” level of 'mericanism.
All this asife, it is simply a false dyhotomy. The better deal could be struct. There were means. There was no will.
There is always a reason to explain terrible things. There is always some pragmatics argument for Yalta, for Hiroshima, for Guantanamo… Sure, you want to be a pragmatic about it… But don’t fucking celebrate it. And apploding Stalin for ending Nazism is like celebrating golum for destroying the one ring. Only more cruel.
American exceptionalism didn’t stop you for a moment from assuming that decimation of my nation would be something I know about?
I’m not even “American”. I am worse than a Yank, I am; may Jan Pawel II have mercy on my soul for uttering this word, a Turk.
You’re saying there’s a false dichotomy, ok. What were you expecting to have happen to get rid of the nazis that were literally industrialising the murder of polish people by the trainload? Also, you seem to know a lot about the horrid things that stalin did, what did he do on the level of taking trainfulls of polish people to factories of murder be worked to death or gassed and cremated?
… I… I don’t… That way you asked the questuons it seems that the answer you are expecting is that, “ok, he did nothing like that”…
… which is shocking to me. You honestly think this was a curveball question? He’s crimes are so well documented.
He litteraly did all of that, minus the gas Chambers. Not from lack of trying Simply not tech savy enougt. But sometimes they had to line up people in a row to kill them with one bullet for time and cost efficiency. Up to 300,000 poles died from cold and starvation when they were deported by million in trains designed to transport cattle. I feel like this is something that should resonate with you becouse thats how he killed 40% of Crimea Tatars. Basic google search would reveal all you asked and more, running people by trains to mass murder them and put in mass graves, running them to force work camps where they were forced to work to their death (please don’t tel me that this is the first time you heard about “gulags”). Mass rapes, mass violatioss, mutilations and castrations of prisoners. You get that all. Nazi soldiers fighted to their death just for a chance to surrender to Americans not to soviets. Even before the war NKVD killed 111,000 poles living in Russia. And that just Poles. If you add other nations. Even if you count just Russians… You must be familiar with Great Terror, right?
Did you google the katyń massacre like i begged you to do?
I’m litteraly shocked by your question. You are quilts litteraly playing a devils advocate here.
Yep, I personally slammed all those Poles into the gas chambers. I was the nazi all along.
Of course you weren’t. You just refuse to revisit imperial-centric view of history, and chose to defend the day when ~100 Million people were betrayed by 2 nations. All in defend of upvoting possibly the worse person that ever lived.
I have no doubt’s about your good intentions. But I don’t understand why learning that things have nuances and that victors tend to color their victory narrative makes you defensive.
If upvoting Stalin don’t make you sick to your stomach, you didn’t have a chance to learn about him enought.
I didn’t realise poland was that big /s
I do understand. I get that Stalin installed an authoritarian puppet and abused poland and was just another invasion to the poles and etc etc etc. I get that the iron curtain states were abused and stripped of resources and maimed and another zillion things.
I get that , just like every person that leaves a place with a left wing dictator, Poland now hates anything remotely left wing, or fucking whatever.
As a side note, I even know the polish contribtions made in the allied “free” countries like britain, where they helped the RAF, and with doing heavy lifting for decoding the enigma machine and a zillion other things that I am unaware of the specifics of.
But if you think for a second that having hitler keep poland as lebensraum , continue to literally liquidate polish people and other slavs they saw as untermenchen and have nazi germany continue existing would have been better for anyone; poles, jews, other europeans, would have been better, you are the one that needs to re-examine their ideas and interpretation of history.
here’s something fun for you :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_war_crimes_in_occupied_Poland_during_World_War_II
If you want to say that perpetuating this beyond six years, and being under the nazis indefinitely , would have been better than being under the soviets, and stalin specifically for 8 more years, I have nothing further to add, you are too far in the sauce to talk reason to.
EDIT: also this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Poles_by_Nazi_Germany
Pointing out your ignorance is a great use of sarcasm. It was not just Poland, obviously.
Poland don’t hate everything remotly left wing. I consider leftist. We are not found of comunism, but a socialism find and well. Many thing that you’d consider lefty we consider central, basicly normal or civil right (like universal health care, maternity leave, free higher education, etc). But we are not found of dictatorship, genecides, tyrany and basic fucking monsters who -just an example - deliberetly starved millions.of Ukrainians.
Did you know that the same pilots were not allowed to participate in the victory parade? Most of them never saw home again.
You seems to make an argument that this was either one or another. Putting aside that you ask to split hairs between two most inhuman system in human history. I encourage you to google soviet crimes on occupied Poland during WW2… Did you took a second to do it? Google Katyn Massacre while you at it. Or did you forget that Stalin was hitler’s ally at first and that they attacked Poland together? Or did they still teach you that WW2 started at Pearl Harbor? American exceptionalism didn’t stop you for a moment from assuming that decimation of my nation would be something I know about? And maybe the 1st Wikipedia page wouldnt be something revelatory to me? This is, “I’ll teach this Italian people in Italy how to make REAL expresso” level of 'mericanism.
All this asife, it is simply a false dyhotomy. The better deal could be struct. There were means. There was no will.
There is always a reason to explain terrible things. There is always some pragmatics argument for Yalta, for Hiroshima, for Guantanamo… Sure, you want to be a pragmatic about it… But don’t fucking celebrate it. And apploding Stalin for ending Nazism is like celebrating golum for destroying the one ring. Only more cruel.
I’m not even “American”. I am worse than a Yank, I am; may Jan Pawel II have mercy on my soul for uttering this word, a Turk.
You’re saying there’s a false dichotomy, ok. What were you expecting to have happen to get rid of the nazis that were literally industrialising the murder of polish people by the trainload? Also, you seem to know a lot about the horrid things that stalin did, what did he do on the level of taking trainfulls of polish people to factories of murder be worked to death or gassed and cremated?
… I… I don’t… That way you asked the questuons it seems that the answer you are expecting is that, “ok, he did nothing like that”…
… which is shocking to me. You honestly think this was a curveball question? He’s crimes are so well documented.
He litteraly did all of that, minus the gas Chambers. Not from lack of trying Simply not tech savy enougt. But sometimes they had to line up people in a row to kill them with one bullet for time and cost efficiency. Up to 300,000 poles died from cold and starvation when they were deported by million in trains designed to transport cattle. I feel like this is something that should resonate with you becouse thats how he killed 40% of Crimea Tatars. Basic google search would reveal all you asked and more, running people by trains to mass murder them and put in mass graves, running them to force work camps where they were forced to work to their death (please don’t tel me that this is the first time you heard about “gulags”). Mass rapes, mass violatioss, mutilations and castrations of prisoners. You get that all. Nazi soldiers fighted to their death just for a chance to surrender to Americans not to soviets. Even before the war NKVD killed 111,000 poles living in Russia. And that just Poles. If you add other nations. Even if you count just Russians… You must be familiar with Great Terror, right?
Did you google the katyń massacre like i begged you to do?
I’m litteraly shocked by your question. You are quilts litteraly playing a devils advocate here.
(Sorry for assuming you are American)