You’re just making up more excuses and trying to justify their behaviour (albeit in what seems to be good faith). 1.2 millions russian men have directly taken part in the fullscale invasion of Ukraine and 75%+ were not conscripted. And you ignore this.
I will admit what you position as blanket judgment is not a good thing. But it’s also not a good thing to infantilize a group of people and treat them like children. The russian “liberals” need to be treated based on their actions and it’s up to them to make the right calls.
The issue isn’t about putin acting like a Tsar. The issue is about a large majority enabling and supporting a tsar. Ignoring this is not doing anyone any favours.
I won’t get into the discussion on russian (or any other) language in Ukraine. I am talking fighting against russian genocidal imperialism. This is a completely different topic (if you want to actually look at it from a real perspective). And yet you make a point to ignore it.
If you have a country/polity/group of people that keep making exclusively bad decisions, at every single historical point possible. It is reasonable to have a sober outlook while not “essentializaing” them. Let their choices and actions reflect who they are. It’s all up to them.
1.2 millions russian men have directly taken part in the fullscale invasion of Ukraine and 75%+ were not conscripted. And you ignore this.
I’m not ignoring it I’m asking what it has to do with Korobeiniki.
I won’t get into the discussion on russian (or any other) language in Ukraine.
And yet you did. That is the reason why I’m pushing back so hard. Why you care if Vadja from Kharkiv, in Russian AF Kharkiv, hums Korobeiniki while reminiscing about sniping Moskals.
I am talking fighting against russian genocidal imperialism.
Of which, so far, Russian-speaking Ukrainians were actually the primary victims because that’s where the Russians attacked. And now you want to tell them what language to speak. Many are already switching over, not all of them speak passable Ukrainian, and I think it’s fair to say that it’s ok to prioritise fighting against Russia over learning Ukrainian, right now. It will be up to them how to deal with the thing in the long term, not up to some random guy from Lviv or wherever.
Russian civil society and imperial attitude is fucked, yes. Does the same apply to Mongolia? If the Mongols changed, why not the Russians? Will they stop singing Korobeiniki when they do? Pretty much every single Russian who’s not actively Z hates Russia right now, even if they can’t admit it to themselves. You can take that as an opportunity to educate, or you can increase the amount of prejudice in the world.
You’re interpretation of the language component of modern Ukraine aids russian genocidal imperialism. There is no issue with private use of russian language. I actually live here and I speak russian with my family and many of my friends (including folks from Kharkiv). Don’t be coy with me.
I brought up the 1.2 million russian men who participated in the full scale invasion of Ukraine to show that your musings about russians being afraid of conscription in the late 90s is BS. You’re making up excuses and whitewashing russian crimes. Helping them play the vicitm. It’s always someone else’s fault or there is some excuse.
Where did I say that there is something inherent (essential) about russians that makes them act this way? Why would I even say this? This would be another excuse. Russians have the full capability to build out a normal society and even pay for the wrongs of their genocidal imperialism. They choose not to. They are welcome to prove me wrong.
Pretty much every single Russian who’s not actively Z hates Russia right now, even if they can’t admit it to themselves.
You’re either very naive or you’re being malicious. Show me an example of a russian “who is not actively Z” (and not hated by 99.99% of the population) showing any measure of nuance on their genocide of the Chechens in the 90s. An appreciation that comparable civilian causalities would be 7 million russians dead would be great.
You can take that as an opportunity to educate, or you can increase the amount of prejudice in the world.
And what do you mean by an opportunity to educate? What is your expected outcome from this alleged “education” and when (specific date) to you expect to see a result? Or is this just a meaningless platitude?
Asking people to respect facts is not prejudice. Pointing out that you (and many others) are whitewashing and enabling russian crimes is not prejudice. Rejecting infantalization of russian society and treating them like adults who should take responsibility for their actions is not prejudice.
There is no issue with private use of russian language.
So once you’re out on the street you can’t talk Russian any more? If you’re in a trench, holding the frontline, with other Russian speakers, you can’t speak Russian?
to show that your musings about russians being afraid of conscription in the late 90s is BS.
I saw the fear in people’s eyes. It’s not like Dedovshchina was a state secret. The reason Moscow had it relatively easy to recruit people so far is that there’s a lot of very, very poor Russians, and they’re offering them lots of money. Those also aren’t the best-informed Russians. They’re by now also mostly dead, one of the reasons why I don’t think the war will make it through the year.
Where did I say that there is something inherent (essential) about russians that makes them act this way?
Two factors, mostly: Your constant unwillingness to say stuff like “Yeah that aspect of Russian culture is actually neat”, instead going for “but have you heard of their torture methods”, and your insistence on eradicating Russian from Ukraine anywhere that’s not a private kitchen table.
You’re either very naive or you’re being malicious. Show me an example of a russian “who is not actively Z” (and not hated by 99.99% of the population) showing any measure of nuance on their genocide of the Chechens in the 90s
That’s a rather specific thing to demand, and also not what I was getting at. Those people hate the lack of freedom in the country. They might still be caught in “People on the top know better I’ll better not think about politics much less talk about it that only gets me into trouble”, but they certainly don’t appreciate Putin’s breach of the social contract: “The Tsar gets to rule, in exchange the Tsar will stay out of people’s lives”. They’re not happy about the situation, but lack political conscience to analyse the situation, much less do something about it. General discontent without means to express it. Just as in Soviet times. Just as in Tsarist times. It was different around the millennium, very different.
You might want to ask e.g. NFKRZ, I bet he has quite a couple of choice words regarding Chechnya, I think the first time I heard that Putin orchestrated the 1999 bombings was from him. I don’t think he’s hated by 99.99% of Russians, though there’s doubtless a majority who are scared to even listen to people like him. In many cases because they would agree, and that’s dangerous.
And what do you mean by an opportunity to educate? What is your expected outcome from this alleged “education” and when (specific date) to you expect to see a result? Or is this just a meaningless platitude?
Wrong question. The question is “what does either approach do to you”. I don’t believe I’ll see utopia in my lifetime, but at least I’ll be able to say that I walked in the right direction.
Pointing out that you (and many others) are whitewashing and enabling russian crimes is not prejudice.
What crime, specifically, am I whitewashing or enabling? Speaking Russian in public in Kharkiv?
Rejecting infantalization of russian society and treating them like adults who should take responsibility for their actions is not prejudice.
You don’t need to be a child to be fooled, or scared. Which is where education comes in, which you deny them. Don’t get me wrong I’m not demanding that you do it – if you don’t find it in you, if it’s too painful, then don’t. Just don’t argue against it.
I am not going to engage on russian language in Ukraine. I was pretty clear I have no issues with private use of russian langauge and you somehow come up with “speaking russian in public in Kharkiv” (as a response to me stating you are whitewashing russian crimes, no less). This is borderline russian propaganda.
When you have a 140 million strong country that is mostly populated by genocidal imperialists, you would be a fool to not recognize how their language and culture is used to enable their violent imperialist goals.
Why should I not demand recognition of their genocidal actions in Chechnya in the 90s? I don’t believe they (alleged russian “liberals”) are genuine about their statements on Ukraine, they just don’t have any choice. I am giving you a chance to prove me wrong.
I don’t watch NFKRZ. Show me a video/article where he (or anyone else with a platform) openly states that russian actions in Chechnya in the 90s were genocidal (comparable to killing 7 million russian civilians) and were wrong. Is this really too much to ask?
You are enabling and whitewashing russian genocidal imperialism (in Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, Chechnya, Syria and multiple African nations) by:
Refusing to treat russians like adults. You fail to recognize that they elected putin, they reelected him again after he shut down independent mass media. They supported the comical switcheroo with medvedev and supported making putin leader for life in 2012.
Ignoring near universal support among the russian population for genocidal imperialism in Chechnya, the invasion of Georgia, the annexation of Crimea and the full scale invasion of Ukraine and extermination of Ukrainian identity (with 10s of thousands of civilians in torture camps) in the occupied territories.
For you, they are always the victims, they are always innocent.
You come up with this discussion on “me denying them education” (what does this even mean?) and you can’t even explain what you mean by the opportunity to educate?
Furthermore, you refuse to outline how this alleged “opportunity to educate” is going to work and why this is a viable approach.
What you’re saying is that the people dealing with russian genocidal imperialism should should shut up and get killed and that we do not have the right to point out that russians should not be treated as innocent children and at a strong majority of their society are genuine supporters of genocidal imperialism.
I was pretty clear I have no issues with private use of russian langauge and you somehow come up with “speaking russian in public in Kharkiv”
I wonder why that is. Might it be because public is the opposite of private?
you would be a fool to not recognize how their language and culture is used to enable their violent imperialist goals.
Around 34% of Ukrainians are Russian native speakers. I suppose because speaking Russian makes people violent imperialists, they’re all violent imperialists? According to you, that is?
What you’re saying is that the people dealing with russian genocidal imperialism should should shut up and get killed
Those people who deal with Moscow’s imperialism, right now, on the frontline, defending Ukraine, are to a large portion Russian speakers. And you want to tell them that they can’t speak their native language because the people who shoot at them happen to also speak it.
Don’t be dense. I said I don’t care what language people use in private conversation (even if it happens to be outside or even in between people in a work environment).
I do have issues with promotion of russian culture and language. We have our our state language and our own heroes. No way should we promote imperialist symbols.
Care to address your whitewashing of russian genocidal imperialism and refusal to recognize their responsibility for putin?
What you’re saying is that the people dealing with russian genocidal imperialism should should shut up and get killed and that we do not have the right to point out that russians should not be treated as innocent children and at a strong majority of their society are genuine supporters of genocidal imperialism.
Care to address your whitewashing of russian genocidal imperialism and refusal to recognize their responsibility for putin?
Who is responsible? The roughly 80% native Russian speakers in Kharkiv or Odessa? They the ones invading?
I said I don’t care what language people use in private conversation (even if it happens to be outside or even in between people in a work environment).
So all streets should be renamed? Restaurant signs taken down? In other places such things are dealt with by having multilingual signs.
So is this what you believe?
No. You’re putting words in my mouth. What I want you to stop is demanding the oppression of an ethnic and linguistic minority in Ukraine which right now is dying on the frontline defending the country. Is that too much to ask.
Ukraine signed the ECRML. Be a good European and, unlike Moscow, care about the treaties you sign. Care about human rights. Don’t blame people for who they are, but what they do, and, do I need to remind you again: Those people whose culture you want to oppress are dying for Ukraine right now. “Glory to the Heroes” my ass, what you’re saying is “Glory to the heroes only if they say “Hamburger”, as soon as they say “Gamburger” then fuck them”.
You seem to be unable to distinguish between “Russian-speaking Ukrainian” and “Russian citizen”. Should Ireland, in your estimation, expel everyone who can’t speak Gaelic? Have all signs, all government communication, in Gaelic?
You’re just making up more excuses and trying to justify their behaviour (albeit in what seems to be good faith). 1.2 millions russian men have directly taken part in the fullscale invasion of Ukraine and 75%+ were not conscripted. And you ignore this.
I will admit what you position as blanket judgment is not a good thing. But it’s also not a good thing to infantilize a group of people and treat them like children. The russian “liberals” need to be treated based on their actions and it’s up to them to make the right calls.
The issue isn’t about putin acting like a Tsar. The issue is about a large majority enabling and supporting a tsar. Ignoring this is not doing anyone any favours.
I won’t get into the discussion on russian (or any other) language in Ukraine. I am talking fighting against russian genocidal imperialism. This is a completely different topic (if you want to actually look at it from a real perspective). And yet you make a point to ignore it.
If you have a country/polity/group of people that keep making exclusively bad decisions, at every single historical point possible. It is reasonable to have a sober outlook while not “essentializaing” them. Let their choices and actions reflect who they are. It’s all up to them.
I’m not ignoring it I’m asking what it has to do with Korobeiniki.
And yet you did. That is the reason why I’m pushing back so hard. Why you care if Vadja from Kharkiv, in Russian AF Kharkiv, hums Korobeiniki while reminiscing about sniping Moskals.
Of which, so far, Russian-speaking Ukrainians were actually the primary victims because that’s where the Russians attacked. And now you want to tell them what language to speak. Many are already switching over, not all of them speak passable Ukrainian, and I think it’s fair to say that it’s ok to prioritise fighting against Russia over learning Ukrainian, right now. It will be up to them how to deal with the thing in the long term, not up to some random guy from Lviv or wherever.
Russian civil society and imperial attitude is fucked, yes. Does the same apply to Mongolia? If the Mongols changed, why not the Russians? Will they stop singing Korobeiniki when they do? Pretty much every single Russian who’s not actively Z hates Russia right now, even if they can’t admit it to themselves. You can take that as an opportunity to educate, or you can increase the amount of prejudice in the world.
You’re interpretation of the language component of modern Ukraine aids russian genocidal imperialism. There is no issue with private use of russian language. I actually live here and I speak russian with my family and many of my friends (including folks from Kharkiv). Don’t be coy with me.
I brought up the 1.2 million russian men who participated in the full scale invasion of Ukraine to show that your musings about russians being afraid of conscription in the late 90s is BS. You’re making up excuses and whitewashing russian crimes. Helping them play the vicitm. It’s always someone else’s fault or there is some excuse.
Where did I say that there is something inherent (essential) about russians that makes them act this way? Why would I even say this? This would be another excuse. Russians have the full capability to build out a normal society and even pay for the wrongs of their genocidal imperialism. They choose not to. They are welcome to prove me wrong.
You’re either very naive or you’re being malicious. Show me an example of a russian “who is not actively Z” (and not hated by 99.99% of the population) showing any measure of nuance on their genocide of the Chechens in the 90s. An appreciation that comparable civilian causalities would be 7 million russians dead would be great.
And what do you mean by an opportunity to educate? What is your expected outcome from this alleged “education” and when (specific date) to you expect to see a result? Or is this just a meaningless platitude?
Asking people to respect facts is not prejudice. Pointing out that you (and many others) are whitewashing and enabling russian crimes is not prejudice. Rejecting infantalization of russian society and treating them like adults who should take responsibility for their actions is not prejudice.
So once you’re out on the street you can’t talk Russian any more? If you’re in a trench, holding the frontline, with other Russian speakers, you can’t speak Russian?
I saw the fear in people’s eyes. It’s not like Dedovshchina was a state secret. The reason Moscow had it relatively easy to recruit people so far is that there’s a lot of very, very poor Russians, and they’re offering them lots of money. Those also aren’t the best-informed Russians. They’re by now also mostly dead, one of the reasons why I don’t think the war will make it through the year.
Two factors, mostly: Your constant unwillingness to say stuff like “Yeah that aspect of Russian culture is actually neat”, instead going for “but have you heard of their torture methods”, and your insistence on eradicating Russian from Ukraine anywhere that’s not a private kitchen table.
That’s a rather specific thing to demand, and also not what I was getting at. Those people hate the lack of freedom in the country. They might still be caught in “People on the top know better I’ll better not think about politics much less talk about it that only gets me into trouble”, but they certainly don’t appreciate Putin’s breach of the social contract: “The Tsar gets to rule, in exchange the Tsar will stay out of people’s lives”. They’re not happy about the situation, but lack political conscience to analyse the situation, much less do something about it. General discontent without means to express it. Just as in Soviet times. Just as in Tsarist times. It was different around the millennium, very different.
You might want to ask e.g. NFKRZ, I bet he has quite a couple of choice words regarding Chechnya, I think the first time I heard that Putin orchestrated the 1999 bombings was from him. I don’t think he’s hated by 99.99% of Russians, though there’s doubtless a majority who are scared to even listen to people like him. In many cases because they would agree, and that’s dangerous.
Wrong question. The question is “what does either approach do to you”. I don’t believe I’ll see utopia in my lifetime, but at least I’ll be able to say that I walked in the right direction.
What crime, specifically, am I whitewashing or enabling? Speaking Russian in public in Kharkiv?
You don’t need to be a child to be fooled, or scared. Which is where education comes in, which you deny them. Don’t get me wrong I’m not demanding that you do it – if you don’t find it in you, if it’s too painful, then don’t. Just don’t argue against it.
I am not going to engage on russian language in Ukraine. I was pretty clear I have no issues with private use of russian langauge and you somehow come up with “speaking russian in public in Kharkiv” (as a response to me stating you are whitewashing russian crimes, no less). This is borderline russian propaganda.
When you have a 140 million strong country that is mostly populated by genocidal imperialists, you would be a fool to not recognize how their language and culture is used to enable their violent imperialist goals.
Why should I not demand recognition of their genocidal actions in Chechnya in the 90s? I don’t believe they (alleged russian “liberals”) are genuine about their statements on Ukraine, they just don’t have any choice. I am giving you a chance to prove me wrong.
I don’t watch NFKRZ. Show me a video/article where he (or anyone else with a platform) openly states that russian actions in Chechnya in the 90s were genocidal (comparable to killing 7 million russian civilians) and were wrong. Is this really too much to ask?
You are enabling and whitewashing russian genocidal imperialism (in Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, Chechnya, Syria and multiple African nations) by:
For you, they are always the victims, they are always innocent.
You come up with this discussion on “me denying them education” (what does this even mean?) and you can’t even explain what you mean by the opportunity to educate?
Furthermore, you refuse to outline how this alleged “opportunity to educate” is going to work and why this is a viable approach.
What you’re saying is that the people dealing with russian genocidal imperialism should should shut up and get killed and that we do not have the right to point out that russians should not be treated as innocent children and at a strong majority of their society are genuine supporters of genocidal imperialism.
I wonder why that is. Might it be because public is the opposite of private?
Around 34% of Ukrainians are Russian native speakers. I suppose because speaking Russian makes people violent imperialists, they’re all violent imperialists? According to you, that is?
Those people who deal with Moscow’s imperialism, right now, on the frontline, defending Ukraine, are to a large portion Russian speakers. And you want to tell them that they can’t speak their native language because the people who shoot at them happen to also speak it.
Make it make sense. Please make it make sense.
Don’t be dense. I said I don’t care what language people use in private conversation (even if it happens to be outside or even in between people in a work environment).
I do have issues with promotion of russian culture and language. We have our our state language and our own heroes. No way should we promote imperialist symbols.
Care to address your whitewashing of russian genocidal imperialism and refusal to recognize their responsibility for putin?
So is this what you believe?
Who is responsible? The roughly 80% native Russian speakers in Kharkiv or Odessa? They the ones invading?
So all streets should be renamed? Restaurant signs taken down? In other places such things are dealt with by having multilingual signs.
No. You’re putting words in my mouth. What I want you to stop is demanding the oppression of an ethnic and linguistic minority in Ukraine which right now is dying on the frontline defending the country. Is that too much to ask.
Ukraine signed the ECRML. Be a good European and, unlike Moscow, care about the treaties you sign. Care about human rights. Don’t blame people for who they are, but what they do, and, do I need to remind you again: Those people whose culture you want to oppress are dying for Ukraine right now. “Glory to the Heroes” my ass, what you’re saying is “Glory to the heroes only if they say “Hamburger”, as soon as they say “Gamburger” then fuck them”.
You seem to be unable to distinguish between “Russian-speaking Ukrainian” and “Russian citizen”. Should Ireland, in your estimation, expel everyone who can’t speak Gaelic? Have all signs, all government communication, in Gaelic?