Isn’t Bazzite an immutable OS with very limited package availability outside of gaming? At least that’s what I remember from a while back. If so it’s an excellent distro for getting a Steam Machine just like ChimeraOS, but I’m not sure it would be a good experience for someone just getting into Linux, since most of the help he will get online will direct him to edit config files which would get overwritten on update.
For example, say the person wants to install Skype, or something that is not in the graphical UI store on Bazzite.
Most guides they would find for Linux would tell him to add a PPA, or download a .Deb, or if he manages to find something that works it would be to download an RPM and they would need to redo it every update, or they could find a guide on how to install it via flatpak (but for that they would need to know what flatpak is) or snap (and go into a lot of troubleshoot figuring out why he doesn’t have snap). We take a lot of Linux knowledge for granted, but people using it for the first time won’t know all of this.
Isn’t Bazzite an immutable OS with very limited package availability outside of gaming?
Nope. It’s basically Fedora Atomic with a lot of special sauce to make onboarding as pleasant as possible. Especially if you want to use it for gaming; be it as a HTPC/console or on desktop. Thus, like Fedora Atomic, you’ve got access to many different package managers to get your needs covered. Heck, Bazzite and its uBlue siblings actually improve upon Fedora Atomic in this regard (at least by default). Refer to this entry in its documentation for the finer details.
but I’m not sure it would be a good experience for someone just getting into Linux, since most of the help he will get online
We’ve all been faulty of this (read: searching on the internet), but we should instead consolidate Bazzite’s documentation first. Only after it isn’t found there, should one consider going to their discussion platforms; be it their own forums or their Discord server. Searching on the internet is IMO a no-go, especially if one isn’t well-versed yet.
will direct him to edit config files which would get overwritten on update.
This doesn’t apply to Fedora Atomic. Perhaps you’re conflating this with SteamOS.
My experience with Bazzite is very limited, so I appreciate the corrections. Since you seem to know a lot about it let me ask you a couple of things:
Bazzite is immutable, right? I’m sure I saw that somewhere and Fedora Atomic is also immutable IIRC
Assuming it is immutable:
How does the config changes not get overwritten? The whole point of an immutable distro is to prevent changes to files to ensure things keep working
How are packages installed? The docs you sent recommend flatpak, which while very good in theory still has a small fleet of apps available. Also they suggest using distrobox among other things, that’s definitely not beginner friendly, although an interesting concept for an advanced user to have your main machine be an immutable host to any system you want.
Regardless of that, yes one’s first intuition should be to go for the docs for your distro, but we know that’s not the case and that most people will just Google their problems with Linux in front because we keep telling them that all distros are the same (which they are, once you know what you’re doing).
Since you seem to know a lot about it let me ask you a couple of things:
😅. I’ll try my best 😜.
Bazzite is immutable, right? I’m sure I saw that somewhere and Fedora Atomic is also immutable IIRC
It is correct that the contents of / is immutable at runtime aside from /var and /etc. However, note that a lot of folders like /home and /opt are actually found in /var in response. This is later ‘fixed’ with symlinks and whatnot. In effect, only the contents of /usr (aside from /usr/share) is off-limits (or ‘actual’[1] immutable).
How does the config changes not get overwritten?
I believe my previous paragraph already answers this. But, to be even more elaborate, Fedora Atomic makes use of libostree (read: git for your OS). With this, only the pristine images are ‘swapped’ in-between updates (or rebases[2]). Your changes to the system are found in /var, /etc and in so-called ‘layers’ only and are not swapped out. Some of these changes are kept track of[3], but most of them reside in /var and will not be touched by libostree.
The whole point of an immutable distro is to prevent changes to files to ensure things keep working
Kinda. The important part is that changes are prevented for the sake of a functioning system. But the entire system doesn’t have to be locked down in order to achieve this. This does mean that it’s actually not that hard to break your system. Just rm -rf /etc and your system will probably fail to boot into the very next deployment. But, as Fedora Atomic keeps at least two deployments, you will still be able to access the previous deployment in which you tried to delete /etc. So you’re protected from accidental mishaps as long as you’ve got at least one working deployment. Thankfully, you can even pin working deployments with the ostree admin pin command. And…, just like that, the distro has basically become dummy-proof. I’m sure it’s still possible to break the system, but you’d actually have to try 😉.
So, in short, Fedora Atomic definitely intends to be a more robust system and succeeds. But, it does so while giving the user agency (and some responsibility).
How are packages installed?
I think everything of importance is mentioned in the docs. What is it exactly you want to know?
The docs you sent recommend flatpak, which while very good in theory still has a small fleet of apps available.
But that’s just the first of seven “package formats” listed in the docs 😜. The other six will assure that your remaining needs are fulfilled.
Also they suggest using distrobox among other things, that’s definitely not beginner friendly, although an interesting concept for an advanced user to have your main machine be an immutable host to any system you want.
This is obviously anecdotal, but Fedora Silverblue was the first distro that I used. I was a complete Linux newb. My coding background was also just a Python-course on Uni. But, somehow, in the very newbie-hostile environment back then (read: April 2022), I managed with Toolbx. So…, yeah…, I can’t relate. Sorry*. You might be absolutely correct. But, as I said, I don’t recognize this from my own experience. I wish I had a video-tutorial back then, though. Honestly, with the amount of hand-holding Bazzite and its docs provide, I believe a newbie should be absolutely fine.
It is even possible to overwrite this. Both in containerfile (requires creating own image) and on device (very hacky, not recommended).
Rebasing is the process by which a different image is selected to boot and run your system from. For example, with this, one can switch from Silverblue (GNOME) to Kinoite (KDE) without reinstallation. This can even be used to switch from a Fedora image to a Aurora/Bazzite/Bluefin/secureblue image.
These include the software you’ve installed through rpm-ostree (or soon dnf). We call these layered packages, based on the analogy that the packages aren’t part of the image but are magically tacked on without you noticing anything finicky. It’s quite magical. Besides that, any and all changes made to /etc are also kept track of. The former you can see by invoking rpm-ostree status, the latter by invoking ostree admin config-diff.
All of that sounds really awesome, but I think I still stand by the conclusion I had even if some/most of my assumptions were wrong, it might be too much for a new person. I get that for you it wasn’t, but I’ve also seen people whose first distro was Gentoo. The rollback to a working state feature is really cool and I definitely could have used that back in the olden days when I first started using Linux and broke my system periodically, but those were different times (be glad you don’t know what a Xorg file is hahaha).
Overall in theory it seems that Bazzite is a system I would like to use, but I thought the same of NixOS and couldn’t get used to it. But I’ll definitely try it in the future.
As an anecdotal point I have in fact ran rm -rf /etc in the past, you are correct that the system doesn’t boot (had to do a full reinstall that time). And as a completely unrelated note be very careful with pressing enter in the middle of typing a command, for example trying to delete a folder inside /etc hahahaha.
I see what you mean. But I’m a Linux beginner myself and found that their package manager has everything I need. I’m guessing it’s the one from Fedora as it was the same when I installed Nobara last year.
Bazzite is full fledged desktop OS. Perfect for beginners
Isn’t Bazzite an immutable OS with very limited package availability outside of gaming? At least that’s what I remember from a while back. If so it’s an excellent distro for getting a Steam Machine just like ChimeraOS, but I’m not sure it would be a good experience for someone just getting into Linux, since most of the help he will get online will direct him to edit config files which would get overwritten on update.
For example, say the person wants to install Skype, or something that is not in the graphical UI store on Bazzite. Most guides they would find for Linux would tell him to add a PPA, or download a .Deb, or if he manages to find something that works it would be to download an RPM and they would need to redo it every update, or they could find a guide on how to install it via flatpak (but for that they would need to know what flatpak is) or snap (and go into a lot of troubleshoot figuring out why he doesn’t have snap). We take a lot of Linux knowledge for granted, but people using it for the first time won’t know all of this.
Nope. It’s basically Fedora Atomic with a lot of special sauce to make onboarding as pleasant as possible. Especially if you want to use it for gaming; be it as a HTPC/console or on desktop. Thus, like Fedora Atomic, you’ve got access to many different package managers to get your needs covered. Heck, Bazzite and its uBlue siblings actually improve upon Fedora Atomic in this regard (at least by default). Refer to this entry in its documentation for the finer details.
We’ve all been faulty of this (read: searching on the internet), but we should instead consolidate Bazzite’s documentation first. Only after it isn’t found there, should one consider going to their discussion platforms; be it their own forums or their Discord server. Searching on the internet is IMO a no-go, especially if one isn’t well-versed yet.
This doesn’t apply to Fedora Atomic. Perhaps you’re conflating this with SteamOS.
My experience with Bazzite is very limited, so I appreciate the corrections. Since you seem to know a lot about it let me ask you a couple of things:
Assuming it is immutable:
Regardless of that, yes one’s first intuition should be to go for the docs for your distro, but we know that’s not the case and that most people will just Google their problems with Linux in front because we keep telling them that all distros are the same (which they are, once you know what you’re doing).
😅. I’ll try my best 😜.
It is correct that the contents of
/is immutable at runtime aside from/varand/etc. However, note that a lot of folders like/homeand/optare actually found in/varin response. This is later ‘fixed’ with symlinks and whatnot. In effect, only the contents of/usr(aside from/usr/share) is off-limits (or ‘actual’[1] immutable).I believe my previous paragraph already answers this. But, to be even more elaborate, Fedora Atomic makes use of
libostree(read: git for your OS). With this, only the pristine images are ‘swapped’ in-between updates (or rebases[2]). Your changes to the system are found in/var,/etcand in so-called ‘layers’ only and are not swapped out. Some of these changes are kept track of[3], but most of them reside in/varand will not be touched bylibostree.Kinda. The important part is that changes are prevented for the sake of a functioning system. But the entire system doesn’t have to be locked down in order to achieve this. This does mean that it’s actually not that hard to break your system. Just
rm -rf /etcand your system will probably fail to boot into the very next deployment. But, as Fedora Atomic keeps at least two deployments, you will still be able to access the previous deployment in which you tried to delete/etc. So you’re protected from accidental mishaps as long as you’ve got at least one working deployment. Thankfully, you can even pin working deployments with theostree admin pincommand. And…, just like that, the distro has basically become dummy-proof. I’m sure it’s still possible to break the system, but you’d actually have to try 😉.So, in short, Fedora Atomic definitely intends to be a more robust system and succeeds. But, it does so while giving the user agency (and some responsibility).
I think everything of importance is mentioned in the docs. What is it exactly you want to know?
But that’s just the first of seven “package formats” listed in the docs 😜. The other six will assure that your remaining needs are fulfilled.
This is obviously anecdotal, but Fedora Silverblue was the first distro that I used. I was a complete Linux newb. My coding background was also just a Python-course on Uni. But, somehow, in the very newbie-hostile environment back then (read: April 2022), I managed with Toolbx. So…, yeah…, I can’t relate. Sorry*. You might be absolutely correct. But, as I said, I don’t recognize this from my own experience. I wish I had a video-tutorial back then, though. Honestly, with the amount of hand-holding Bazzite and its docs provide, I believe a newbie should be absolutely fine.
It is even possible to overwrite this. Both in containerfile (requires creating own image) and on device (very hacky, not recommended).
Rebasing is the process by which a different image is selected to boot and run your system from. For example, with this, one can switch from Silverblue (GNOME) to Kinoite (KDE) without reinstallation. This can even be used to switch from a Fedora image to a Aurora/Bazzite/Bluefin/secureblue image.
These include the software you’ve installed through
rpm-ostree(or soondnf). We call these layered packages, based on the analogy that the packages aren’t part of the image but are magically tacked on without you noticing anything finicky. It’s quite magical. Besides that, any and all changes made to/etcare also kept track of. The former you can see by invokingrpm-ostree status, the latter by invokingostree admin config-diff.All of that sounds really awesome, but I think I still stand by the conclusion I had even if some/most of my assumptions were wrong, it might be too much for a new person. I get that for you it wasn’t, but I’ve also seen people whose first distro was Gentoo. The rollback to a working state feature is really cool and I definitely could have used that back in the olden days when I first started using Linux and broke my system periodically, but those were different times (be glad you don’t know what a Xorg file is hahaha).
Overall in theory it seems that Bazzite is a system I would like to use, but I thought the same of NixOS and couldn’t get used to it. But I’ll definitely try it in the future.
As an anecdotal point I have in fact ran
rm -rf /etcin the past, you are correct that the system doesn’t boot (had to do a full reinstall that time). And as a completely unrelated note be very careful with pressing enter in the middle of typing a command, for example trying to delete a folder inside /etc hahahaha.I see what you mean. But I’m a Linux beginner myself and found that their package manager has everything I need. I’m guessing it’s the one from Fedora as it was the same when I installed Nobara last year.