Kras Mazov

Comrade Cowbee already followed with great responses but I want to add that we usually forget to factor in why would someone want more?

That’s easy to answer currently because we live in a capitalistic world where individualism and greed are taught to us since we are little and are constantly hammered into our heads. We must consume, we must have more, etc.

That will not be the case in a communist society. At that stage of development, these capitalistic ideals would not be alive in the collective consciousness of people. So, while today we can ask why wouldn’t someone want more, someone from that future might ask why would I want more if I already have everything I need?

You’re still at this? I made several arguments in that comment that you can reply too independent of the definition you use for liberalism, if you’re just gonna continue to be this childish, then I have nothing else to talk about. Either respond to my comment or fuck right off.

And since you’re gonna read this, like it or not, your definition of being a liberal has no basis in reality and is based on a theory that was never meant to you, no matter how much mental masturbation you make to justify it. The bourgeoisie used it to put themselves in power and continue to use it to maintain capitalism. You can cry all you want about how capitalism and liberalism as somehow separate, it won’t change reality.

Liberalism is a death cult

Then just respond to my arguments.

scratch a liberal and they’ll tell you not to do that because they don’t like getting scratched.

No, it’s scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.

Lmao, I engaged with all your arguments, but you cannot do the same for me.

What you call yourself doesn’t matter if you’re completely wrong. The only thing that matters is the tangible reality, which you are going against without providing a single evidence of why you’re right and why I’m wrong, when I argued extensively on my view.

There is no separating capitalism and liberalism because liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. You should read the recommendation from comrade Dessalines. You’re arguing for some idealistic version of Liberalism that never existed in the real world. This is not a materialistic view and goes against history itself.

Get specific. My right to freedom of movement from one state to another is detrimental for the collective why?

In the US right now? Probably none. Now if you look at China that can be a problem for example, that’s why a milenar system like the Hukou exists. A good example is about rural exodus to urban areas which is a real problem that needs proper tackling, if at a given time it is needed to be controlled, then individual liberties on that should be restricted until the issue is fixed. If that doesn’t happen, you end up with what happened here in Brasil, the formation of favelas.

Also, I got more specific in that same paragraph when I talked about the right of free speech and racism as an example.

That’s not true. Unemployment exists and liberals constantly argue to expand welfare and introduce UBI.

You’re misunderstanding me here, I didn’t meant to use that as actual argument, I was citing that as examples of the propaganda itself. I don’t believe these things, I believe the issue is the system. I should have put those between quotation marks, my bad. I’m not gonna respond to the next ones citing that, because I’m not making that argument.

Also, I don’t believe UBI is the answer, as it doesn’t fix the underlying issue, capitalism itself.

The state won’t do it for you, but the state also won’t censor you in return when you talk about “controversial” stuff like LGBTQ rights, communism, etc.

Except when they do.

If that’s not a compelling enough reason feel free to argue against that specific right.

Here in Brasil, LGBTphobia, racism and nazism are against the law. It’s that simple. And that’s the bare-minimum.

According to liberalism, for all.

Only on paper, in practice the ones that brought it are the only ones that are free, like I already argued.

Agreed. The type of capitalism liberals consented to was heavily regulated and based on competition.

All capitalism is heavily regulated. Capitalism cannot exist without state intervention. And competition is a lie. Competition naturally leads to monopolization, it is a contradiction of capitalism.

Capitalists are trying to purge the liberals from making reforms and replacing them with fascists, which is pushing people further left from that for better allies.

Capitalism cannot purge liberals, because liberals are proponents of capitalism. Furthermore you seem to think liberalism is opposed to fascism, when historically that has been the exact opposite, every time leftists gathered enough power to challenge the capitalistic system, liberals have turned on us and helped the fascists.

Also related: Malcolm X: White Liberals and Conservatives

The Republicans conserve capitalism because they’re conservative. The Democrats maintain capitalism.

So, the exact same thing?

You need money to run a campaign, it’s impossible for any ideology (no matter how hostile to capitalism) to end up as a major party (at least in our current system) because it requires the capitalists to donate to those parties to have anywhere close to the resources needed to run a campaign.

That’s why we marxists don’t believe in electoralism, you’re literally pointing out how the whole thing is rigged. We believe in revolution. Electoralism is at best a tool to put our ideas out there to the population and further organize the working class.

It’s not a “new” type of liberalism, it’s just centrism.

Bruh. What kind of vibes based analysis is this? Neoliberalism is defined by making the state “smaller” which is done by getting rid of state owned companies, destroying social nets, etc. It is literally capitalism creating new markets for itself by destroying the little the working class might have of rights.

Just look at the proponents of neoliberalism: Reagan, Tatcher and Pinochet.

Yes I can. The majority of liberal voters oppose the genocide. It’s the democrats who are funding it.

These liberals are opposed to the genocide because they have a lick of empathy. Both Democrats and Republicans are pro genocide, because it benefits the US capitalists at home and furthers US’s interests in the middle east. Even a younger Joe Biden admitted that, which I already linked.

Don’t blame liberals when capitalists are the ones doing this shit.

Capitalists are doing the genocide. Liberals are enabling them.

Are you genuinely kidding me? Lmfao. You’re so bad faith for no reason!

You said, and I quote: “The genocide in Palestine is wrong because they cannot have a right as individuals”. If I’m supposed to interpret that any other way than the way I responded, then you need to rephrase that. My argument is not in bad faith, I’m responding to exactly what you said.

Let’s say a liberal accepts the legitimacy of Israel. The next step is that they’d have to accept the legitimacy of Palestine on equal terms.

You clearly ignore the historical context that I already provided. Israel was a settler colonial project from the get go. That is inseparable from the concept of Israel as a country, therefore you cannot accept the legitimacy of both Israel and Palestine as countries. And anyone that says that is wrong and uninformed on the issue at best, or a genocide apologist at worst.

You cannot make this claim on a vacuum like it doesn’t have a truckload of implications behind it. This is a completely idealistic view of the situation and of the world.

Again, you’re lacking tangible material analysis.

A liberal may condemn Oct 7 and say the music festivals shouldn’t be a valid target, but that is a rare exception in a one sided war waged on Palestinians by Israelis.

And that is still a wrong argument from the liberals. There shouldn’t have been a music festival on fucking occupied territory to begin with. Israel was literally doing a festival while starving and genociding the palestinians, but the moment the palestinians fight back and attack that festival then it is a problem for the liberal.

There no way a liberal could look at the settler violence and decide Palestine doesn’t have the right to violently oppose that.

Just lol. I must have hallucinated the amount of “but do you condemn Hamas” liberals I see on the internet then.

Yep, then people were born into that situation and now wr have to deal with. “Is Israel legitimate?” seems like a bit of a distraction personally when the answer to “are they committing genocide?” is “yes”.

Bullshit. Palestinians have seen their life go to absolute hell in the spam of a single generation. And both questions are valid, because Israel is not a legitimate state and that needs to be acknowledged because the two state solution doesn’t exist. The only solution is giving back the land to Palestine.

Also, you ignore how the vast majority of Israel’s population is pro-genociding the Palestinians. Hell, there were protests in Israel for the right to rape Palestinians.

You’re taking the definition linked at face value and not doing further investigation into what it means and its material repercussions.

In a capitalistic society capital and the right to private property is above all, including the individual, it is by all means sacred and must be respected. This means that despite having more empty homes than homeless people, these people can’t be located into these empty homes because the property is above them, they don’t matter.

The supposed “rights of the individual” is just the individualization of the self in detriment of the collective. Despite us being social animals that depend on each other, said rights and constant capitalistic propaganda sells us the idea that we are single individuals that are responsible for everything around us. Phrases like “If you get get fired its your own fault and you should pull yourself by your own bootstraps”, “if you get sick that’s your own fault”, “if you become homeless that’s your own fault”, etc. It’s never the system in place that prioritizes profit and private property above you. It also doesn’t matter that someone is racist because that’s their individual right of free speech, despite that hurting society as a whole, it’s the individual above the collective.

“Liberty” for who? If your choice is to pay rent or be homeless, that’s not a choice. If you have to worry about keeping a roof above your head, not getting fired, if you can pay your bills, if you can afford food, then you’re not free. The only ones that are free are the bourgeoisie, as they hold all the power in a capitalistic society.

I can’t accept this label. They are conservatives/fascists. Not liberal.

The Republicans maintain capitalism, just like Democrats do. They are both liberals because liberalism is the status quo of capitalism. Of course there is neoliberalism too, but as the name implies, it is a “new” type of liberalism. They are by all metrics liberals. Further right than the Democrats, sure, but liberals none the less. They fit into defending the things I explained above, just like the Democrats also do.

If you arent distinguishing between ideology, party and individual then I don’t think you fully understand capitalism.

I’m literally talking to you from a marxist instance. I don’t claim to know everything about capitalism, but I do think I have a better grasp than most liberals on this.

Furthermore, what do you mean with distinguishing ideology from party and individual? Ideology is present in both these things. Capitalistic liberal ideology as the status quo, maintains itself by being ever present in the collective mind of the people as the only viable solution. You can’t separate these things because they are deeply interlinked, both the individual and the party are not separated from ideology.

The genocide in Palestine is wrong because they cannot have a right as individuals, they do not have liberty, they have not had an election allowed to be held since 2008, they have no political equality, they have no right to private property and settlers can kick them out, they are not equal to Jews under the law.

No, a genocide doesn’t stop being wrong when the genocided population have rights. Also you completely ignore Palestine as a country, which grants the Palestinians rights, even tho Israel doesn’t since it is a settler colonial genocide entity.

Any true liberal would support Palestine from your own source.

Anyone with a shred of empathy supports Palestine. The question of a liberal supporting Palestine or not on ideological grounds is settled in if the liberal believes in the legitimacy of Israel or not, and anyone that does believe that, doesn’t support Palestinians in any way whatsoever.

Israel is not a legitimate state, it was a settler colonial project from its very inception. That’s why we have 75+ years of a genocide happening that the world brushes off and does nothing about.

Revolution is the only solution. Even if USians managed to elect a really good reformist, the dominant class will not take lightly to that. We take the path of revolution not because we want it, but because it’s the path the bourgeoisie forces us to take, they will simply not allow you to meddle too much with their system without consequences, and will fight to keep it in place, just like the monarchies of the past fought these same bourgeoisie that violently took the power away from them to establish themselves as the new status quo.

Also, the US is a constant threat to leftists abroad, just need to look at Chile on 09/11/1971, when democratically elected socialist Salvador Allende was killed in a US-backed military coup that installed neoliberal dictator Pinochet into power, which is further proof of the problems of electoralism, but on an international scale.

You genuinely should read marxist theory. Comrade Cowbee have a great starting guide.

I feel we’re playing different games, or using different terms.

You are correct, you are using different terms because in the US liberal is used to talk about the Democrats. Everyone else in the world, including here on Lemmy, uses liberal as in Liberalism. Both Democrats and Republicans are liberals, both defend the status quo and wants capitalism to continue.

Conservative: Republican party, wants to consolidate power and wealth in the hands of a few.

Both Republicans and Democrats wants that. They are both funded by US’s billionairies, they both attend to their interests and want this system to continue. I’m not gonna deny that the Democrats are to the left of the Republicans, but they are both still right wing parties in a two-party system.

It’s irrefutable, though, that Harris would have been better for Palestine

Biden, a Democrat, started the genocide, KKKamala said that she vows unwavering commitment to Israel’s existence and have multiple times stated support for Israel. Genocide is genocide, there’s no making it better mf. Both Democrats and Republicans are half the face of the same side of a coin, they both want the genocide of the Palestinians, because that’s what the USian bourgeoisie wants. You’re literally doing the 50% genocide meme.

Also, here’s Joe Biden’s long history of pro-Israel statements.

foreign relations

KKKamala said that she would make sure the US military is the most lethal force in the world.

Other than that, you just showed how electoralism under capitalism literally doesn’t work, but somehow think you can reform the system? Just how? Y’all spent decades fighting for the bare-minimum of woman’s rights and public health, that being the right of abortion, all to have it taken away in the blink of an eye and you genuinely think the system can work?

What the actual fuck am I reading? I have never been exposed to such pungent liberal brain rot in my life as I have reading your comments in this thread.